*THE HULL TRUTH is the world's largest FREE network for the discussion of Boating & Fishing. Whether you're researching a new boat, or are a seasoned Captain, you'll find The Hull Truth Boating & Fishing Message Forum contains a wealth of information from Boaters and Sportfishermen around the world.
Welcome to the updated THT!
If you are having trouble signing in, please email feedback@thehulltruth.com with your username and we will help you. We thank you for your patience as we help you access the new site!
Random Quote: To those who know, no explaination is necessary. To those who don't, none is sufficient!
Vintage Hatteras and Bertram boats have been experiencing some problems with the ethanol fuel in the northeast as of late. The resin used in the fuel tank construction at the time of manufacture is apparently incompatible with the ethanol. The resin dissolves, passes the fuel filters and re-cures on the valves, causing pushrod failure. Additionally, the tank ultimately fails as well.
Does anyone have any information related to this problem in Chris Crafts. I have a '74 TSF 30.
I suppose it is the boat owner’s responsibility to research the compatibility of their tanks with the fuel available at the local pumps, but it seems to me that the state that adopted the ethanol requirement should share some responsibility, since the only gas I can buy in Connecticut contains ethanol.
I haven't read about tank problems with ethanol but have read no less than 4 articles about the damage this stuff is doing to marine motors in the NE. It seems the ethanol is one heck of a caustic agent (my phrase) and is breaking free a ton of sludge, etc and running it into the engine filters and pistons. It wouldn't surprise me if it is taking it's toll on fuel tanks as well.
FWIW....I do not think there is a chance in hell any state will provide financial assistance to boaters that have these problems.
Way back in the mid seventies fiberglass tanks were introduced for boats. These tanks worked out real well for the Boston Whaler since the tank was positioned on the floor under the seat, and exposed to salt corrosion. Fiberglass seemed like a great idea. Until the engines they were hooked to started developing suspicious problems. I was a tech at that time and pointed my finger at the tanks. The problems I saw with the engines was primarily isolated to the fuel system, but there were exceptions. I saw premature breakdown of soft components, such as gaskets and fuel lines, and lots of gummed up carbs way before they should have from setting up. I even found some of the tanks with a gummy surface on the inside of the tanks. Of course no one wanted to hear the truth since the tanks were such a great idea and worked so well in those Whalers. I was making lots of money on the repairs, but still wanted to get to the bottom of it.
Finally, I found a tank that needed to be replaced because of a crack. I cut a section out of that tank and took it to a local engineering firm. They conducted tests on the tank exposing it to straight gasoline, and gasoline with alcohol mixed as you could find at many stations at the time.
Their findings:
If the entire surface area of the tank were exposed to gasoline continually at an average temperature of seventy degrees all of the resin would be completely dissolved within seven years.
The alcohol in the fuel accelerated the dissolving action.
The catch was that not all of the resin could be exposed at one time, even if the tank was full. Only the inside surface of the tank was exposed at any given time. Some of the tanks were way worse than others. I suspected that some were cured better than others at the time, but now I believe it also had a lot to do with the quantity of alcohol at the pump they were using.
The result of my efforts? Even with substantiated proof of a problem with fiberglass tanks used for the storage of gasoline, they were still sold. I continued to make money off the repairs, satisfied that I'd done my part.
I would wait till Boat US actually does some testing.... I'm guessing that it is more of a function of age where 30+ years of sludge has accumulated in the bottom of the tank and the new ethanol fuel is breaking up that sludge and sending it through the engine. I have an older Bertram and I've taken the tanks out and had them cleaned and there was significant amount of sludge, BUT - NO SIGNS OF THE TANK BEING COMPRIMISED. The other thing that ALL boaters with older boats should look at is the material of the fuel fill lines and feed lines to the engine, the older lines were not compatible with ethanol added fuels.
Ethanol in itself should not do any damage to fiberglas fuel tanks. I've used up to a 25% mix in really cold weather on my old gassers without any problems whatsoever. Now, methanol is a completely different matter. No amount, not even a little bit, should be used in any gas engine. It is horrifying to see what kind of damage it will cause. Methanol will eat fiberglas. But, the first thing I do when I buy an old boat (25 yrs +) is replace the fuel tanks, the fuel lines, the hydralic lines and anything else that could possibly be compromised.
__________________ Capt Alf Harvey
FV Miss Lily
Bocas del Toro
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Press Contacts: Scott Croft, 703-461-2864, SCroft@BoatUS.com
BoatU.S. Safety Alert:
Newly Reformulated Gasoline
With Ethanol Could Rupture
Old Fiberglass Gas Tanks
Explosion Hazard and Significant Engine Damage
Evidenced on Large, Older Vessels
Older fiberglass fuel tanks may fail as a result of recent gasoline reformulations that are using increased concentrations of the fuel additive ethanol.
BoatU.S. believes that as a result of industry-wide changes in fiberglass resin formulations in the mid 1980’s, the problem appears to be limited to tanks manufactured prior to this date. Diesel fuel systems are not affected. The fiberglass fuel tanks in question were standard equipment on some Hatteras, Bertram and possibly other boats. While the investigation is still in the preliminary stage, BoatU.S. believes that reformulations made to gasoline in the Long Island Sound area that replaced MTBE (Methyl Tertiary-Butyl Ether) in late 2004 with a 10% concentration of ethanol is causing the additive to “attack” the resin in the old fiberglass tanks. The results are weakened tank walls and bottoms with the potential to leak. Anytime gasoline leaks into the bilge, there is a significant risk of an explosion.
BoatU.S. has confirmed reports of tank wall failure in which gasoline was found leaking into the bilge. It also has reports of a tar-like substance – possibly created from the chemical reaction between the older fiberglass resin and ethanol – causing hard black deposits that damage intake valves and pushrods, ultimately destroying the engine.
“At a minimum the problem can devalue a boat significantly since replacing damaged fuel tanks and engines can be a significant expense. However, the potential for leaking and explosion is a far greater factor,” said Chuck Fort, associate editor of Seaworthy, the damage avoidance newsletter from BoatU.S.
BoatU.S. is asking boaters for any firsthand reports or other information they may have on the issue and is doing additional testing to evaluate the extent of the problem. “We’d like to know if other gasoline reformulations with lesser concentrations of ethanol react with the resin, perhaps at a slower pace,” said Fort.
The increasing use of ethanol has largely been the result of federal and state efforts to replace MTBE, a potential carcinogen, with a safer alternative. MTBE and ethanol oxygenate fuel to help reduce harmful emissions when running cold engines just after startup. BoatU.S. has no reports from other states using lesser concentrations of ethanol. “Many well-regarded boat manufacturers have used fiberglass tanks reliably for years,” said Fort. “But unforeseen by these builders, the new reformulation in New York and Connecticut includes a high percentage of ethanol. And unfortunately, gasoline with ethanol is the only fuel available to boaters in these areas,” he added. Some stations in New Jersey may also be using ethanol-enhanced fuel.
If you have any information on the issue, please contact Fort at 703-461-2878, ext. 3033 or email CFort@BoatUS.com.
Early symptoms may include engine backfiring and hard (sluggish) starting, in which the motor turns over slowly as though the battery were weak. Affected engines also may not reach their rated RPM. Fort said, “Ironically, the substance seems to pass through fuel filters leaving no tell-tale marks – some have appeared clean on our reports. The only way to know for certain is to pull the carburetor and inspect the underside for a black, gummy film which can indicate a serious problem.”
Until it fully understands the extent of the issue, BoatU.S. is recommending that any early 1980’s or older vessel with fiberglass gas tanks be stored empty over the winter.
BoatU.S. – Boat Owners Association of The United States – is the nation’s leading advocate for recreational boaters providing its 620,000 members with a wide array of consumer services including a group-rate marine insurance program that insures nearly a quarter million boats; the largest fleet of more than 500 towing assistance vessels; discounts on fuel, slips, and repairs at over 825 Cooperating Marinas; boat financing; and a subscription to BoatU.S. Magazine, the most widely read boating publication in the U.S.
The only surprise to me is that it took so long. I sounded that fiberglass fuel tank alarm over a quarter century ago. And now it's because of some new formulation? Oh well.
Also there are reports of soy/bio diesel causing similar problems in fiberglass tanks of diesel boats. I am not aware of what component or contaminate is the cause of this, but both tank gel coat (should be epoxy coated, but some are gel coated)--and injectors/pumps have been damaged.
Bio in high enough concentrations (50-75%) will cause all the accumulated crud in the tanks to dissolve, then dislodge and fill up the fuel separators, thus causing fuel constraints. I used 75% bio on my last fill and it did exactly that. I didn't mind too much as I was already heading in for servicing anyway. But, imagine your surprise if this happened 50-60 miles out to sea!
__________________ Capt. George Woodward
Died 16 DEC 2007
send ecards to family c/o bquasuittuq@yahoo.ca
im going through this right now with my 1970 bertram 25 with 360 chrysler inboards....black hard deposit on plugs, underside of carb ,intake manifold, and i'm sure valves and seats...though i havent looked that far yet.....both engines were starting and running fine at time of pull out...but starboard engine was failing to turn up to max RPM...the first warning sign...this all happened in 10-15 hours of running... i drained the gas and till i got to the bottom of the tank it looked fine....the filters looked new.....left unchecked you will hang a valve .....plan to find a magic solvent ..manually clean what i can and run on avgas for awhile....interested in any and all opinions as to cause and cure.......randall
Two Hatts at my marina are presently having their decks cut out to facilitate tank replacement. Six Hatts have been affected at our marina and one Bert. If you come up with a solution, let us know.
One guy did two head jobs this summer due to the buildup of crap on the valves and his lack of understanding on what the hell was causing it. He is now replacing his tank. He checked my carbs and the throats were clean. He said his carb throats were covered with black crap and the heads were worse. The resin glues the valves tight. This is a real problem.
carrie-dee...it sure is..and ive been following it for a few years..waiting till it was my turn......the truth is ,as far as i can tell ,NO ONE knows for a fact what the problem is....other than that its ethanol related...tanks, crud, fuel lines....all suspect...not throwing out my tanks just yet.....if it really does eat the tank itself... sooner or later boats will start to explode!!..that should speed along a solution.......if
The ethanol is definately eating the tanks. I recently looked at a used 26' Fortier that had a fiberglass tank. The fuel disolved some of the tank and the resulting 'sludge' froze a valve in the guide and ruined the motor (or at least the heads). The marina where the boat was kept said they had also cut tanks out of a few older Bertrams and the fiberglass tanks were soft and spongy from the fuel eating through them.
A 10% ethanol, nor MTBE won't do the damage. There's something wrong with the mix! Where are they getting their supply?Backtrack the supply chain, and then you'll find the culprit. Ethanol is used during winter months to eliminate water from fuel systems. Heet and other brands are commonly used in smaller doses on boats too.
__________________ Capt Alf Harvey
FV Miss Lily
Bocas del Toro
It is the 10% ethanol that's causing the deterioration of the fuel tanks. People that use heet or drygas, end up with much lower concentrations of ethanol so the problem does not present itself.
This is not isolated to a single fuel supplier. This problem is present in any locations where they use the E10 fuel......
Boy I just love guys like Rob. Sorry to pick on you by the way, who say "ethanol is definately eating the tank". No one really has a clue what the real problem is; but when "chicken little" got hit on the head he definately said "the sky is falling". Gas-o-hol has been around for a long time. It's been used in the midwest for many many years. I guess I can draw this conclusion. There are definately no fiberglass tanked boats in the midwest. Boys you can take that one to the bank because that's what some guy at a marina told me.
Guys, again, I had an engineering firm chase the problem for me years ago. Accoding to them, and my own personal findings, pure gasoline was dissolving the tanks. Alcohol accelerated the problem.
Alcohol has been in gasoline for many years now. It's not a new problem, nor is engine failures associated with fiberglass tanks.
The marine industry has been in a state of denial with regards to fiberglass tanks for about a quarter century now. Ever seen a fiberglass tank in any automobile? It's just not a good idea.
By the way, acetone will dissolve those deposits better than anything else I've found. Could be because acetone dissolves resin.
A boat at my marina had this problem. It was a 10+year old boat with a Fiberglass tank. When CT switched to Ethanol fuel, it caused him problems with gummed up valves, etc etc etc.. They scraped off some of this hardened material for testing.
__________________ . . . . . . BALLYHOO PIN RIGS For SALE HERE 10 pack:
boatdood....if you have the real ethanol blues...the epoxy like black goo....acetone will not disolve it ...in fact it wont even soften it a little.....so far...as far as i can tell.. NO ONE has come forward with A GOOD SOLVENT.....my goal this winter is to find one.....i have 16 fouled plugs and 16 shot glasses...let the games begin........randall.
I've been using ethanol for years. Both of my boats were built in the 1970's and have Chevy engines. I've not experienced any problems. If it is ethanol doing the damage, then why haven't my fiberglas gas storage tanks been affected? We had a problem a while back with tainted Shell gasoline. Several hundred vehicles had their fuel sensors go bye-bye and the resulting law suit forced Shell to repair/replace every one of them. Blaming the fuel, is easy. Finding the real cause is harder when no looks beyond.
__________________ Alice Q.
26m FV Madeline Jean, Queen Charlotte Isl, CANADA
03Nov suffered a stroke aboard ship - now paralysed - contact 59022 (her brother) for more details.
24Nov - my sister died today. Burial at sea has taken place
Ethanol Dissolving Fiberglass Fuel Tanks 
THT sponsor
