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Old 10-31-2013, 11:19 PM
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Default Revolution 4 causing vibration at idle

Hi all,

Just about to finalize a conversion from 2 x Optimax 150s to 2 x Mercury Four Strokes. I love the new engines, they are simply awesome in every way and I will be posting soon a full report once I have finished fine-tunig the setup.

In terms of props, I had 2 sets of counter props for the Optis in 19", Laser II and Offshore. I tried both props and I was getting around 5400 RPM at WOT from the Offshore with a full load. I decided to order a new set of Rev 4 in 17" as I wanted to be able to get as close as possible to 5800 RPM.

I tested the Rev4 yesterday and there was a bit of chop out there so could really not test perfectly but I got comfortably to 5600 RPM and I think I can do a bit better in a glassy calm sea. I like the feel of the Rev4 but I have discovered a very odd issue!

At idle and in gear I now have a very odd vibration which I had never experienced with either the Laser or the Offshores! Both engines are doing it! As soon as I move to 800 RPM or above it disappears and the engine feel awesome and quite again. At times the vibration also disappears at idle, but it often comes back!

Can someone shed some light and tell me what could be causing this!? The props are brand new. I torqued them to 75NM and the instruction paperwork had 55nm without hub bushing and 100nm with hub bushing. The flow-torq setup I have seems to be with the hub bushing. I spoke to the dealer that sold me the engines and props and he told me that they never torq them, they simply tighten them up tight. I am now wondering if it could be due to the fact that I did not torque them to 100nm but I am not convinced. Tomorrow I can either try this or I could try using the old flow-torq hub setup that I had in the Offshore or LaserII. The only other thing I have noticed is that the Rev4 seem a lot bigger than the other two. There seems to be a lot less gap between the edge of the blade and the cavitation plate. I am sure this isn't a big deal, but I have lost the absolute quietness of the four-strokes with these Rev4! My engines now sound like two V8s at idle!

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Adri
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Old 11-01-2013, 01:49 AM
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Sounds loose to me but I'm no expert.

Did you source the engines locally? Sometimes wonder about changing out my optis but they go well enough, are economical enough.

Shall be very interested to see how your figures compare between the two, if there is anything in it apart from noise?

I recently changed out my vengeance props to 17" rev4s and am getting the feeling my fuel burn has improved a lot - the old props blew put easily offshore - but haven't done enough trips to confirm the burn.
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Old 11-01-2013, 02:40 AM
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Yes, got the engines in Adelaide. Got a good deal and great service. I had 2001 Optis with smartcraft and large pins on Piston, latest block design. Don't know how much the latest Optis have improved over mine but these four strokes leave my old Optis for dead. I could not reach more than 5050 at WOT for 36knts GPS with the 19" Offshores and a medium load, but the four stroke went to 5450 and 39knts GPS with a very full load and the same Offshore props! With a light load coming back from a big trip I reckon they will do 41 or 42 knts GPS! They are awesome at all RPM ranges! Look for my full review in a few weeks!

As far as my issue with the Rev4s, I think tomorrow I might try rigging them with my older style Flo-torq and see what happens. I had never used the torq wrench before and I had never had this issue. Maybe it is due to the fact that the flo-torqs are new and they need the full 100nm pressure to bed in! Let's hope so, I love the props, but I hate this increased noise and vibration at idle.

Adri
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Old 11-01-2013, 02:48 AM
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What Merc Four Strokes did you go back with?
The 150's?
Sounds like prop chatter.
Yamaha has it in their new F200 in-line, if you use their SDS prop it helps negate it.
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Old 11-01-2013, 03:40 AM
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you need to run a Flo Torq 4 hub kit.

Thats what it was designed for.
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Old 11-01-2013, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ken2 View Post
you need to run a Flo Torq 4 hub kit.

Thats what it was designed for.
Beat me to it. You are experiencing low-speed clutch rattle that has been seen on some engines from the 40hp FourStroke's all the way up to the 4 cyl Verado's with stainless props. As ken stated, the Flo-Torq 4 hub kit is designed to combat the problem on 135-175hp engines.
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Old 11-01-2013, 05:37 AM
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you need to run a Flo Torq 4 hub kit.

Thats what it was designed for.

Ken,
Does the prop chatter hurt the engine or lower unit at all? We do get it a little bit at low rpms with our rev 4s on my hpdi 150s.
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Old 11-01-2013, 05:42 AM
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I don't really thing it hurts anything. Its annoying as hell, but thats about it.

It normally only happens to 4 cylinder 4 strokes, but I've seen it on 2 strokes, and some V6 4 strokes.

But thats just my opinion, I don't have any test data or anything to say its not hurting anything.

You can run Flo Torq 4 hubs on your HPDI's as well. they would shift smooth and not rattle.

The hubs are expensive though.
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Old 11-01-2013, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
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I don't really think it hurts anything. Its annoying as hell, but thats about it.
Confirmed this with Mercury when we first experienced the problem years ago.
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Old 11-01-2013, 07:01 AM
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Another vote for the Flo-Torq IV hub if it is not already installed. Here is some installation information from Mercury Marine.

http://www.mercurymarine.com/media/m...s/Flo-Torq.pdf
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Old 11-01-2013, 07:24 AM
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x10 for the flo-torq 4 hub kit. My inline 4's I had would chatter like crazy, switched props and added the hub kit, smooth transitions without any noise
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Old 11-01-2013, 07:48 AM
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Ill bet its harmonic deal between the 4 blades and the 4 cylinders. The new hub dampens it.
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Old 11-03-2013, 01:04 AM
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Thank you all for the great feedback! I am using the brand new Flo-Torq II Hub Kit 835257K 6 that came in the box with the new props.

I did not reply any earlier because I decided to run a couple more tests first and report back to you.

First thing I tried is to torq more the props. I went past 100nm as I read on the document suggested on page 2 136nm. This still did not make any difference, the vibration at idle persisted.

I then tried using the slightly different Flo-Torq II setup that I was using on the Offshore props. This also did not make any difference! the vibration was still there.

In conclusion I went back to the new Flo-Torq II and left it as it was.

I plan tomorrow to visit my dealer and show him your suggestion for using the Flo-torq IV. I must say that I do not intend to pay for this, as it seems illogical that Mercury can sell these props on these engines with this issue and expect that a client has to pay to get the right flo-torq setup, I would expect that they would supply this in the first place, seeing that these are brand new engines that we are setting up. I am confident that the dealer will help me out sort this. I will report back once I test with the new flo-torq IV setup!

Thanks again,
Adri
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Old 11-03-2013, 04:05 AM
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I think you are going to have to pay for the new hub kit. Mercury engines don't come with props, therefor they do not know what engine a particular prop will be mated with and what particular hub kit it may need. The flo torq 2 is basically a "standard" hub kit and comes boxed with almost all Mercury props.

If you buy a Mercury prop to run on a Yamaha or Honda, would you expect Mercury or the dealer to pay for the right hub kit? The only way I can see you not paying is if the dealer packaged everything together and said that was the set-up you needed. Besides that, I see you having to buy the new flo torq 4.
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Old 11-03-2013, 04:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adriano View Post
Thank you all for the great feedback! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

I plan tomorrow to visit my dealer and show him your suggestion for using the Flo-torq IV. I must say that I do not intend to pay for this, as it seems illogical that Mercury can sell these props on these engines with this issue and expect that a client has to pay to get the right flo-torq setup, I would expect that they would supply this in the first place, seeing that these are brand new engines that we are setting up. I am confident that the dealer will help me out sort this. I will report back once I test with the new flo-torq IV setup!

Thanks again,
Adri
You seem to be pretty savvy about what you are doing, but as david said, keep in mind that it was not Mercury (the factory) who sold you the Flo-Torq II. And also keep in mind that your dealer may not have been aware that you needed the Flo-Torq IV setup.

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Old 11-04-2013, 03:01 AM
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Guys, I understand where you are coming from but here is my scenario. I bought two brand new Mercury Four Strokes engines from my dealer. I don't know what happens in the States, but here in Australia this engines are delivered standard with Vengeance s/s props. As I already had two other pairs of s/s props from my previous Optimaxes, with the dealer we made the decision not to order the props until we would have done some testing with my LaserII 19 and Offshores 19. We tested the engines with both props and decided to order a set of Rev4 in 17. I had to pay a difference for these versus the original Vengeance, but these are now the props supplied with my engines brand new original setup. As neither the LaserII nor the Offshore had this vibration/rattle issue, I have to conclude that there are only two options here:

1) We make the Rev 4 work correctly without any additional cost beside what I have already paid to get the Rev4s
2) I get a different pair of props that do not have this issue

I am assuming that from what you are saying and from what I am finding online, Mercury should be aware that there is an issue on the Rev4 matched to some engine configuration and this is probably why the Flo-Torq IV was developed in the first place! While I understand that Mercury might not have to supply the Flo-Torq IV directly in the Rev4 box in order to avoid further potential dramas to a few of their clients, I do feel that if they are supplying these props on a new engine configuration with some of their own engines which manifest this problem, than the minimum they can do is to swap flo-torq types, if this fixes the issue and makes their new engine owners happier.

As always my $0.02,
Adri
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Old 11-04-2013, 03:21 AM
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The Flo torq 4 is a specialty hub for specific situations.
There are lots of other mercury hub kits that, if needed, cost extra.

Here in the states, you buy a Mercury Propeller, and included in the box is a stock mercury hub.
If you have a different hub requirement, you have to purchase any specialty hubs seperately.

You can do what you like with your dealer.
Maybe they will give you a set of FT4's with no additional cost. I hope they do.

Of your 2 options, Your basically saying, you'd rather run props that don't perform as well, for years to come, before spending a couple hundred on a set of hubs.
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Old 11-04-2013, 03:47 AM
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Of your 2 options, Your basically saying, you'd rather run props that don't perform as well, for years to come, before spending a couple hundred on a set of hubs.
The old cut your nose off to spite your face routine!

Hubs here, ken, seem to cost well over twice what they are there but that's by the by.
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Old 11-04-2013, 04:40 AM
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Ken, I agree with you and the other guys, first of all I need to be happy with the performance of the props in cruising condition. Having said this, I was very happy with the four blade Offshores, they have heaps of lift and great low grant. I was also getting 39knts GPS with a very full load at 4450 RPM. Because of the vibration/rattle issue at idle and in gear, I haven't really felt confortable testing extensively the Rev4. They seem an awesome set of props and the blades seem a lot bigger than the ones on the Offshore. Initial impressions have been very good but they have also been limited to a 20 minutes short test and in choppy conditions.

Can someone explain why the Rev4 have this vibration/rattle issue at idle and in gear while the Offshores don't!? They are both 4 blades. I guess I am afraid that something isn't right with this prop. What if I buy the Flo-Torq IV hubs and I still have more vibration than I have with the Offshore/Vensura?

It was quite funny when we were coming back to the dock and at one point we thought the engines had stalled and switched off! In reality what had happened was that the vibration had stopped on both engines at the same time for a few seconds, then started again. While it had stopped, the engines were so quite that we thought they had switched off! This tells you how annoying this issue really is! In the end, if I can see that the problem is definetely completely resolved with the F-T IV, I will be ok with whatever outcome we work out with the dealer, but it certainly leaves me wondering why there is this issue just with the Rev4!

Will keep you posted,
Adri
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Old 11-04-2013, 04:59 AM
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I run the rev4s on my 150 optis but I wanted to lower my planing speed (which they did), it also appears as a bonus they might have radically improved my fuel burn on long trips offshore.

Do mine rattle? Would I notice!
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