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I thought that SeaTow was going to clarify all the mess about salvage vs. towing in their WEB page. Nothing yet? Don't let this issue calm down until it is clarified.
Seawolf2 - 5/15/2005 1:31 PMI thought that SeaTow was going to clarify all the mess about salvage vs. towing in their WEB page. Nothing yet? Don't let this issue calm down until it is clarified.
Read their contract! The defination of salvage has always been there. Furthermore, SeaTow, or anyone else for that matter, cannot change the legal defination of "salvage". That's the duty of the Courts. "Clarifications" to an existing contract are only issued to tudor the non-reading public and others who just can't seem to "get it"!
*This "issue" is a non-issue. If you don't want your boat salvaged, than don't have it salvaged! Simple isn't it?
Salvage is salvage. The definitition hasn't changed. What has changed is the number of ill informed boaters. Hopefully sites like this can help people become better informed.
Every year there is someone you gets themselves in a jam, gets saved by Sea Tow or TowBoatUs or whomever, and then cries fould when they see what salvage claims look like. The insurance companies don't balk at it. becuase they are well aware of maritime law which is nothing like the laws of your town.
A vessel about to get pounded to bits on a spit of rock is in immediate peril, but some boat owners will steadfastly refuse to believe the boat is in peril until the moment it sinks. For the most part, tow boat operators are professionals, and are often far more aware of teh laws and procedures than the people they are towing.
Ask yourself this - if the tow boat hadn't come, what are teh chances that your boat would survive unscathed if you just dropped anchor wherever the boat was and left it there?
read about salvage conditions very carefully. a local guy on nc coast was recently charged 22.000.00 dollars total, seatow, lawyers,etc for being pulled from a sandbar. DO NOT SIGN ANY PAPERS ON THE WATER OR AT THE DOCK. YOU ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO SIGN PAPERS, and your request for help can not be denied but you may be pressured by the captain to sign the papers only to find out later what you have signed for. BE CAREFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if you can find the april issue of nc sportsman, don;t listen to me and read all about it for yourself. this has changed the way a lot of people think and feel about seatow.
read about salvage conditions very carefully. a local guy on nc coast was recently charged 22.000.00 dollars total, seatow, lawyers,etc for being pulled from a sandbar. DO NOT SIGN ANY PAPERS ON THE WATER OR AT THE DOCK. YOU ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO SIGN PAPERS, and your request for help can not be denied but you may be pressured by the captain to sign the papers only to find out later what you have signed for. BE CAREFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if you can find the april issue of nc sportsman, don;t listen to me and read all about it for yourself. this has changed the way a lot of people think and feel about seatow.
The cost was no where close to $22k and it wasn't just a sandbar, it was Lookout Shoals. He signed a salvage contract. Ya'll need to get over it. The matter was discussed extensively here, don't misrepresent the facts...
That's bogus bovine fecal matter! You holler "help", Billy Bob's Tow Service shows up, he says "salvage", you say "not", he says "I'll be standing by if you change your mind or become endangered of life and limb". End of discussion.
He has no obligation to do a damned thing unless you're in serious danger - in which case it's salvage - and not even then if he can't do so safely! You're correct, though, you don't have to sign anything. You may not get help, but you never have to sign for what you don't get (and what you think you should get means nothing).
This type situation can get real messy!!! First,, SALVAGE isn't SALVAGE until the captain of the assisting tow vessel says it is. Its totally his call, and some are more prone to call salvage than others. Second, the Salvage laws are very general, and can be interpreted just about however the towing captain desires. Third, maritime law does state that all mariners MUST assist others in distress,,,and not necessarily in peril. Are the towing companies excluded from this law? Seems to be the case, but against the law based on my interpretation anyway.
chipper - 5/16/2005 1:05 PMThis type situation can get realmessy!!! First,, SALVAGE isn't SALVAGE until the captain of theassisting tow vessel says it is. Its totally his call, and some aremore prone to call salvage than others. Second, the Salvage laws arevery general, and can be interpreted just about however the towingcaptain desires. Third, maritime law does state that all mariners MUSTassist others in distress,,,and not necessarily in peril. Are thetowing companies excluded from this law? Seems to be the case, butagainst the law based on my interpretation anyway.
We can "parse" this thing to death. You can sign legal contract documents under "duress", you can sign with a disclaimer, etc. This whole mess started because one person signed a valid salvage contract and then tried to renege on it after he got his boat back. Everyone lost, because, it appears that SeaTow just got tired of this guy's public bellyaching and settled for costs. He fought in the court of public opinion on this and every other boating forum he could get on. In a court room he would have lost big time.
And, NO, commercial tow operators are NOT exempt to the "public assistance" rules. If a commercial operator refuses to save "life and limb" his azz is grazz! If he saves "life and limb" and the owner/operator refuses salvage and the vessel sinks or breaks up, then the owner/operator has to answer for his own refusal of assistance.
It's still simple!
PS Wiley:* why to words run togeather upon clicking "submission"
Understanding the Difference Between Towing and Salvage
By STEPHEN F. WHITE
Every year, hundreds of boaters discover first-hand the difference between contract towing and salvage. In many cases, the discovery is made when the surprised boat owner receives a bill for a salvage reward as opposed to a bill for towing services. The difference between a bill for a salvage reward as opposed to a bill for simple towing services can be enormous. The typical towing bill is based upon the hourly rates of the towing company. While such bills can be considerable, they will usually pale by comparison to a bill for a salvage reward, which is usually based upon the salvor’s claim that he is entitled to a liberal reward for saving property from damage by a marine peril. Many salvors will base their claim upon a percentage of the value of the salvaged vessel. This can range anywhere from 1% to 100%. Boat owners who receive a bill for a salvage reward, usually make a claim upon their marine insurance. At that point, the uninitiated boat owner will usually receive his first lesson into the differences between marine towing and salvage. Hopefully, boat owners who read this article will gain advance knowledge of the differences between towing and salvage so that they will be better prepared to react in a crisis and to make the best selection between accepting salvage services and forming a contract for marine towage and recovery services.The law of marine salvage has existed in one form or another since the Middle Ages. The fundamental incentive driving the law of marine salvage has been to provide a reward for salvors who voluntarily come to the assistance of vessels in distress in order to save persons and property from destruction. Marine salvage laws hail from a time when most vessels at sea were engaged in commerce. Before a ship operator would be willing to depart from his schedule and to incur additional expenses caused by a side trip to save persons and vessels in distress, an incentive was needed to make the effort worthwhile. Maritime law and international treaties have provided such an incentive in the form of a reward to the successful salvor.In order to claim a salvage reward, the salvor must meet three requirements. There must be (1) a marine peril; (2) service voluntarily rendered; and (3) success in saving persons or property. If these three requirements are met, the salvor may present the owner of the salvaged property with a claim for his reward. The size of the reward will vary from case to case based upon the circumstances presented by the salvage situation. Many boaters believe that they do not need to become familiar with the law of salvage, since “that salvage stuff only applies to large ships and I only own a 25 foot runabout.” This is one reason for their surprise when they unexpectedly receive a bill for a salvage reward. The laws of marine salvage apply to every vessel upon navigable waters, from a canoe to an ocean liner. It is not necessary for the vessel to be engaged in commerce. This subjects almost all recreational vessels (except those on landlocked lakes and ponds) to claims for salvage rewards.It is not necessary for a salvor to be engaged in commerce or to be a professional tower/salvor. Passing boaters (known as “chance salvors”) and professional salvors are both entitled to present a claim for a salvage reward. The only difference is in the size of their rewards, since professional salvors are typically entitled to receive an uplift in their rewards due to the investment of time and money they have made to purchase and maintain their equipment, keep up a radio watch, and to stand ready at an instant to assist boaters in distress. The availability of the more liberal reward is an incentive to professional salvors to provide this necessary public service.The underlying marine peril, which must exist before a salvage claim can be asserted, may take many forms. Typically, a marine peril is the kind of dangerous situation at sea that will almost certainly inflict damage upon a vessel in distress if it is left subject to wind, waves, weather and tide without prompt salvage assistance. Such circumstances typically include fire, collisions, leaking/sinking, grounding, and distress brought upon by mechanical breakdowns and equipment failures. In order to simplify life on the water, many professional marine towing and salvage companies have adopted unwritten policies defining which situations and perils they will consider to present a salvage situation as opposed to a simple towing job. For example, many companies will consider simple towing jobs in fair weather, or “light grounding” jobs (requiring only one towing vessel) to be towage and will send the boat owner a towing bill. On the other hand, many companies consider any job that requires more than one towing vessel (such as a “hard grounding”), or a job performed in perilous circumstances (such as in fog, shoal water or in a storm) to be a marine salvage job, and they will send a bill for a salvage reward. Other marine towing and salvage companies have not adopted any such policies and, unless some other agreement is reached with the boat owner, they will consider every job involving the slightest actual or potential peril to be marine salvage.The requirement that a salvage service be “voluntary” should not be exaggerated. Voluntariness only requires that there be no pre-existing contractual duty between the salvor and the vessel in distress. If a tower has a contract to perform the work, it cannot present a salvage claim. Another exception is for salvors who are statutorily obligated to render assistance such as members of the Coast Guard, police and fire departments. They typically cannot present a salvage claim because their service is not considered “voluntary.” Upon arriving at the scene of a potential salvage job, many professional salvors will present the boat owner with a “No Cure, No Pay” contract. By signing a “No Cure, No Pay” contract, the boat owner usually agrees to some form of binding arbitration, which will achieve a relatively quick determination of the appropriate amount of the salvage reward. The boater also acknowledges that the services being provided will form the basis of a salvage claim, and that the salvor will be entitled to a lien upon the vessel in the amount of the claim. Regardless of the existence of a “No Cure, No Pay” salvage contract, and in the absence of a towing agreement or other contract, the services rendered by a salvor are still considered to be voluntary and will entitle him to a reward if he is successful. The primary difference between salvage with and without a “No Cure, No Pay” agreement, is that without the agreement the boater will not be required to submit to binding arbitration to determine the amount of the reward. If the boat owner disagrees with the amount of the claim it will then be necessary for the salvor to go to court in order to get paid.Because every salvage situation is different, it is extremely difficult to set the amount of the salvage reward. In the absence of a “No Cure, No Pay” agreement calling for arbitration, an admiralty court will set the reward after suit is filed by the salvor against the boat owner and/or his vessel. The United States is a signatory to the Salvage Convention of 1989 (SALCON 89). This is an international treaty that attempts to standardize the law of salvage. SALCON 89 includes ten different criteria that must be examined in order for the court or arbitrator to determine the appropriate amount of a salvage reward. The maximum amount of the reward is capped at the post-salvage value of the vessel. In no particular order of importance, the 10 criteria to be considered area) the salved value of the vessel and other property;(b) the skill and efforts of the salvors in preventing or minimizing damage to the environment;(c) the measure of success obtained by the salvor;(d) the nature and degree of the danger;(e) the skill and efforts of the salvors in salving the vessel, other property and life;(f) the time used and expenses and losses incurred by the salvors;(g) the risk of liability and other risks run by the salvors or their equipment;(h) the promptness of the services rendered;(i) the availability and use of vessels or other equipment intended for salvage operations;(j) the state of readiness and efficiency of the salvor’s equipment and the value thereof.In some cases, a salvor is successful in saving the vessel, only to find that it is a constructive total loss, or that its post-salvage value is insufficient to pay a meaningful salvage reward. In cases of constructive total loss, the salvor will not be entitled to any salvage reward, since he has effectively salvaged nothing of value. The salvor will, however, be entitled to an award of “special compensation” - a new form of compensation adopted by SALCON 89. The possibility of receiving “Special Compensation” is designed to encourage salvors, even in cases in which saving the vessel is hopeless, to continue to exert their best efforts to minimize environmental damage (primarily oil pollution). Under such circumstances, the salvor is entitled to be paid the fair value of his out-of-pocket expenses, plus a fair rate for the equipment and personnel actually utilized in the salvage operation. If he is successful in minimizing environmental damage, the salvor is entitled to recover up to 130% of this amount. In extraordinary cases where court or other tribunal deems it appropriate, the salvor may be entitled to receive up to 200% of this amount. It can be seen that there is a considerable difference between marine towing and marine salvage. It is the boaters who do not know the difference who are surprised when they receive a bill for a salvage reward instead of a bill for marine towage or other services based upon an hourly rate. The difference can be enormous. Take for example a $150,000 yacht, which is purposefully grounded by its owner because he can’t find the source of a leak. If a marine tower were called and agreed to assist the vessel on an hourly rate basis, then repaired the leak and pulled the boat off in 4 to 5 hours, and billed for its work at an hourly rate, the cost might be $500 to $600. However, the same marine tower who arrives and sees a boat in peril because the weather is deteriorating or because the grounding is close to the shipping channel, and who enters into no contractual agreement with the owner before providing his services, could demand and receive a salvage reward for $25,000 for doing essentially the same work.If the boat owner has time in which to obtain a marine contractor on an hourly rate basis, as opposed to allowing a salvor to save his vessel, he may prefer to make a contractual arrangement rather than accepting salvage services and the inevitable claim for a salvage reward. SALCON 89 does provide that a boat owner has the right to refuse salvage services. Under circumstances in which the boat owner may have time to hire the marine contractor of his choice on a contractual basis rather than accepting the offered services of a salvor, and where a small delay will not overly exacerbate the danger to his property, it is much more advantageous for the boat owner (and his insurance carrier) to hire a marine contractor who is willing to perform the services for a conventional bill. If time allows, the boat owner should consult with his insurance company before allowing salvage to take place. The insurer may be able to recommend marine contractors in his area or be able to make other useful suggestions. Nevertheless, if the boat is in immediate peril and there is no time to take a more considered approach, accepting the services of a marine salvor is often the only rational choice. Under such circumstances, the salvor’s services should not be refused (but the boat owner must be prepared to receive a substantial bill for a marine salvage reward).Hopefully, this article has been useful in explaining the differences between marine towing and marine salvage. Since the recreational boater is subject to the same laws of salvage as are large ocean-going ships, the recreational boat owner must be just as astute as a seagoing Captain in making his choice of remedies when his boat is exposed to a marine peril. Marine salvors should still be considered the “good Samaritans” of the sea. They provide a valuable and necessary service. Their voluntarily offered services are only misunderstood by boaters who do not appreciate the difference between accepting a salvor’s services and retaining a contractor on an hourly rate basis. The only way to avoid surprise and confusion and to be absolutely sure that you will receive a bill for services rendered as opposed to a bill for a salvage reward, is to get your agreement with the marine contractor in writing prior to the time the marine contractor begins his work. If you have a signed agreement for services at an hourly rate, then you should be able to keep track of the costs of those services as they are incurred, and you should not have to fear the unexpected receipt of a sizeable bill for a salvage reward based upon a percentage of the value of your vessel. If your boat is in peril (and if you have time), the best advice is to ask the responding marine contractor what he will charge for his services before he gets started, get your agreement in writing, and contact your insurance carrier as soon as possible.
better yet...go and visit with your tower...have them explain what the differences are...and them have them explain what thier policies are and how they handle business...not all franchises are alike...and if you venture out on the water, then do a little studying on salvage law and admiralty law...there is no "Sea Tow" salvage definition...its just salvage law and the definition of what constitutes a salvage has been explained in the previous thread...study it carefully and then you will be able to make an informed decision....and yes, we do still have an obligation to render assistance to someone in distress...did you really think for a moment that we were not?..or were you just attempting to be an ass?...it worked...
First, let me say that I have a towing license, but also that I've never charged a penny for towing. I have personally seen the yellow boat leave a boater in fairly shallow water, but not in peril, and no emident danger. After the yellow boat left, the guys waved us down. We went to them, bow first and got a line from them. Towed them in without a problem. They said the yellow tow boat wanted to claim salvage. No way it was only a tow. My only suggestion is to ask how and by whom they are paid. Might give you an idea as to which company would claim salvage.
__________________
2005 McKee 23 TE/FS with 200 Zukes
50 Ton Masters with Towing Endorsement.
peril ,peril, peril. the state of being in danger of injury,loss or destruction.someting that presents immediate danger.example: perils of the highway.seems that this word is taken big advantage of on the water in certain situations. everytime someone gets behind the wheel of a car, what the hell is that? good thing highway laws are not the same as marine laws.the whole world is in peril.
i seem to have gotten carried away and hereby, forthwith apologize for the unprofessional remark i made...it kinda got mt dander up implying that we would not render assistance to another vessel in distress...any kind of distress...again my sincere apology for the unprofessional and unwarranted remark....
Mike,
You were not out of line. I would like to input a little perspective, I have raised around thirty boats for Sea Tow Galveston over the years and it is a tough job. Some jobs go 15 to 20 hours in pounding weather, you are risking life, limb, and destroying you equipment all the while the coast guard and general land office are waiting with citations in hand, you get paid four or so months down the road if you get paid at all, sometimes you get dragged into court to bare witness for the adjusters......and the money is not that great. I'll admit by the time my company shows up the vessel is a pure salvage so I am getting close to being off thread, however We and I'd say most all professional salvage companies do not charge beyond the normal re float rate for the area or else you will burn your reputation, and the insurance companies from which the majority of our calls come will not deal with you in the future if you are out there gouging people. There are some opportunists out there to be certain, but they get weeded out soon enough. I just had to throw Mike a line here because I hear it all the time. No matter how many Charity fund raisers, skippers meeting and yacht club presentations you give, or the thousands of people we help out each year I still get the comment..."bet you can't wait for hurricane season." - It burns a little more each time I hear someone asking if I standing around like some vulcher wishing my town and friends get tossed so I can make an few extra hunderd bucks. I'll stop here before I hijack the tread completely, just understand the job is a little tough, you do have to love it to do it, and getting mud thrown in your face in any line of work is disheartening especially when your job means being apart of someone elses worst case senerio.
- David
SeaTow Salvage Definition 
The cost was no where close to $22k and it wasn't just a sandbar, it was Lookout Shoals. He signed a salvage contract. Ya'll need to get over it. The matter was discussed extensively here, don't misrepresent the facts... 
a) the salved value of the vessel and other property;(b) the skill and efforts of the salvors in preventing or minimizing damage to the environment;(c) the measure of success obtained by the salvor;(d) the nature and degree of the danger;(e) the skill and efforts of the salvors in salving the vessel, other property and life;(f) the time used and expenses and losses incurred by the salvors;(g) the risk of liability and other risks run by the salvors or their equipment;(h) the promptness of the services rendered;(i) the availability and use of vessels or other equipment intended for salvage operations;(j) the state of readiness and efficiency of the salvor’s equipment and the value thereof.In some cases, a salvor is successful in saving the vessel, only to find that it is a constructive total loss, or that its post-salvage value is insufficient to pay a meaningful salvage reward. In cases of constructive total loss, the salvor will not be entitled to any salvage reward, since he has effectively salvaged nothing of value. The salvor will, however, be entitled to an award of “special compensation” - a new form of compensation adopted by SALCON 89. The possibility of receiving “Special Compensation” is designed to encourage salvors, even in cases in which saving the vessel is hopeless, to continue to exert their best efforts to minimize environmental damage (primarily oil pollution). Under such circumstances, the salvor is entitled to be paid the fair value of his out-of-pocket expenses, plus a fair rate for the equipment and personnel actually utilized in the salvage operation. If he is successful in minimizing environmental damage, the salvor is entitled to recover up to 130% of this amount. In extraordinary cases where court or other tribunal deems it appropriate, the salvor may be entitled to receive up to 200% of this amount. It can be seen that there is a considerable difference between marine towing and marine salvage. It is the boaters who do not know the difference who are surprised when they receive a bill for a salvage reward instead of a bill for marine towage or other services based upon an hourly rate. The difference can be enormous. Take for example a $150,000 yacht, which is purposefully grounded by its owner because he can’t find the source of a leak. If a marine tower were called and agreed to assist the vessel on an hourly rate basis, then repaired the leak and pulled the boat off in 4 to 5 hours, and billed for its work at an hourly rate, the cost might be $500 to $600. However, the same marine tower who arrives and sees a boat in peril because the weather is deteriorating or because the grounding is close to the shipping channel, and who enters into no contractual agreement with the owner before providing his services, could demand and receive a salvage reward for $25,000 for doing essentially the same work.If the boat owner has time in which to obtain a marine contractor on an hourly rate basis, as opposed to allowing a salvor to save his vessel, he may prefer to make a contractual arrangement rather than accepting salvage services and the inevitable claim for a salvage reward. SALCON 89 does provide that a boat owner has the right to refuse salvage services. Under circumstances in which the boat owner may have time to hire the marine contractor of his choice on a contractual basis rather than accepting the offered services of a salvor, and where a small delay will not overly exacerbate the danger to his property, it is much more advantageous for the boat owner (and his insurance carrier) to hire a marine contractor who is willing to perform the services for a conventional bill. If time allows, the boat owner should consult with his insurance company before allowing salvage to take place. The insurer may be able to recommend marine contractors in his area or be able to make other useful suggestions. Nevertheless, if the boat is in immediate peril and there is no time to take a more considered approach, accepting the services of a marine salvor is often the only rational choice. Under such circumstances, the salvor’s services should not be refused (but the boat owner must be prepared to receive a substantial bill for a marine salvage reward).Hopefully, this article has been useful in explaining the differences between marine towing and marine salvage. Since the recreational boater is subject to the same laws of salvage as are large ocean-going ships, the recreational boat owner must be just as astute as a seagoing Captain in making his choice of remedies when his boat is exposed to a marine peril. Marine salvors should still be considered the “good Samaritans” of the sea. They provide a valuable and necessary service. Their voluntarily offered services are only misunderstood by boaters who do not appreciate the difference between accepting a salvor’s services and retaining a contractor on an hourly rate basis. The only way to avoid surprise and confusion and to be absolutely sure that you will receive a bill for services rendered as opposed to a bill for a salvage reward, is to get your agreement with the marine contractor in writing prior to the time the marine contractor begins his work. If you have a signed agreement for services at an hourly rate, then you should be able to keep track of the costs of those services as they are incurred, and you should not have to fear the unexpected receipt of a sizeable bill for a salvage reward based upon a percentage of the value of your vessel. If your boat is in peril (and if you have time), the best advice is to ask the responding marine contractor what he will charge for his services before he gets started, get your agreement in writing, and contact your insurance carrier as soon as possible. 
