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Old 10-26-2004, 09:04 AM
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Default RE: 275 VERADO

Brad1 - better go do your homework. First off Merc says the 275 Verado will run on 87 octane, just not to the tune of 275HP, so it is recommended. Now how do they compensate, easy, the ECM monitors for detonation by using a knock sensor (not a new technology), retards the timing and adjusts the supercharger boost. So in essense 87 octane will detonate at the 275 HP output, the ECM hears it and makes the adjustments. Which in turn puts the 275HP at something less than 275HP. Information says close to 250HP.

Yamaha used knock sensors on their big block V6 OX66 2 strokes, as a preventative measure to counter detonation, since gas formulas vary. The ECM would retard the spark if detonation was heard.
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Old 10-26-2004, 09:26 AM
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Default RE: 275 VERADO

Kevin,

How does*the ECM control or adjust supercharger*boost? Openclose a wastgate of some sort? Electric clutch thats turned onoff when needed?

SIM
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Old 10-26-2004, 10:14 AM
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Default RE: 275 VERADO

Ya'll are just jealous! Don't mind flats either, he's just pissed off cuz his Susuckmes keep gettin' blown away by the Verados. I'm Just joshin' ya flats! Honestly, if you're not going to run high test, don't bother getting the 275, go for the 250 and not have to worry about it. Don't get the 275 and not run high test just because it's only recommended, put it in when possible. Not running high test resulting in less hp will lead to a motor that cannot reach it's top RPM with the props pitched to turn with 275 hp. We all know that not reaching your top RPM can load a motor down and lead to problems down the road. However, ocassionally is OK, just not all the time just because you can.
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Old 10-26-2004, 10:17 AM
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Default RE: 275 VERADO

Quote:
gersly - 10/26/2004 9:44 AM

Who has the most experience and expertise with turbo/supercharging in the world? - Weissach (Porsche R&D)
Who was in charge of that aspect at Porsche? Klaus Brestle
Who did Merc hire to put the Verado together? Same
How much did Merc invest? $$100 million

You can fault the Verado for weight or expense but not technology - the basic premise of supercharging small engiines is proven...

Porsche has proved that time and time again at LeMans - and remember LeMans is an endurance race...

And I think this is just the beginning - I predict this engine layout will allow Merc to produce 400-500 hp in an outboard using a 3.0 liter block...
Getting rid of the heat and more weight will be enemy nos. 1 and 2 here. Until they do something about the excessive weight, the competition "garage door" is wide open for any of the significant players to drive a normally aspirated truck through.

If supercharging is the answer to it all, why haven't all the auto manufacturers and inboard gas powered boat manufacturers gravitated to smaller displacement, boosted engines? Seems just the opposite has happened and the majority of them keep coming out with larger displacement, normally aspirated engines. Latest generation Audi S4 is a prime example -- twin turbo 2.7L V6 to 4L V8. The "no replacement for displacement" still seems to ring true for most applications.

As for the 275 verus the 250, it doesn't seem worth the extra capital cost or fuel cost to squeeze out another 25 HP. I'll bet that unless you are a bass boater, that last 25 HP will be used less than 1 percent of the time. I don't see the 25 HP adding any significant mid-range benefit. As for the bass boater, the extra weight and poor fuel consumption at WOT would likely be a big deterent compared to other new products coming to market.

Don't get me wrong, I think its great that they are trying to raise the bar, just wish they had executed a little better. The technology is interesting but the high cost and high weight still means a limited market in my view. I think they "fixed" some things that really weren't and are not broken in the customers' eyes.
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Old 10-26-2004, 10:52 AM
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Default RE: 275 VERADO

Quote:
Brad1 - 10/26/2004 7:13 AM

Running fuel having too low of an octane can cause detonation. Detonation causes serious engine damage. I would never consider using gasoline that does not meet the manufactorers recommendation. You might get by just fine, but you are taking a risk.

I have never heard of an engine computer system that is intelligent enough to detect fuel octane rating and automatically adjust (retard) engine timing to compensate. I would imagine that if you intend to run your Verado on gasoline that is lower than the manufactorer recommended octane rating, that your dealer will need to re-map your ignition curve. Retarding the ignition will result in a reduction in performance.
Where to start...

Porsche turbo cars
03 and newer Mustang Cobra
These I know for absolute sure
Almost any other OBDii car that is supercharge/turbocharged. California has only 91 octane available and some other states have 93 octane available. Higher octane burns slower allowing more boost and timing. The computer doen't measure octane directly, but moniters the "Burn" by monitoring for pre-detonation or "Dieseling" and retarding the timing before damage occurs.
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Old 10-26-2004, 11:08 AM
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Default RE: 275 VERADO

the 275 verados look huge!
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Old 10-26-2004, 11:17 AM
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Default RE: 275 VERADO

Regardless of what anyone says about the Verados (much of it negative), everyone would love to try a set out for a weekend.
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Old 10-26-2004, 11:43 AM
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Default RE: 275 VERADO

Quote:
gersly - 10/26/2004 7:46 AM Verados only avail on new boats at this point (thier largest customer) I think avail for repower after jan 1...Went down to ft laud show the other day via boat to watch them stage the in water part of the show - every mfr that used mercs in the past had verados on them...


Sorry Gersly, I saw a 2000 Outrage w/ a 250 Verado in St. Michaels back in July.



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Old 10-26-2004, 11:51 AM
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Default RE: 275 VERADO

Quote:
Somethin-Fishey - 10/26/2004 11:52 AM

Quote:
Brad1 - 10/26/2004 7:13 AM

Running fuel having too low of an octane can cause detonation. Detonation causes serious engine damage. I would never consider using gasoline that does not meet the manufactorers recommendation. You might get by just fine, but you are taking a risk.

I have never heard of an engine computer system that is intelligent enough to detect fuel octane rating and automatically adjust (retard) engine timing to compensate. I would imagine that if you intend to run your Verado on gasoline that is lower than the manufactorer recommended octane rating, that your dealer will need to re-map your ignition curve. Retarding the ignition will result in a reduction in performance.
Where to start...

Almost any other OBDii car that is supercharge/turbocharged.
If you say so. But a 2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP (which just happens to be Supercharged by the way) requires 92 octane and knocks when you run anything lower. Manual says don't run anything less than 92 or engine damage can occur. Also states nothing about an anti-knock sensor. That car is OBDII.

I've seen first hand the effects of detonation. Me, I run the highest octane I can buy in all of my boat and motorcycle engines. I wouldn't rely (not on a regular basis anyway) on a sensor to stand between me and engine damage.
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Old 10-26-2004, 12:04 PM
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Default RE: 275 VERADO

SIM - not knowing what actually the architecture is, Merc calls it electronic boost pressure control.
To make an assumption (you know what that means) I would guess a waste gate of sorts that is controlled by a solenoid valve. As offered today in high perormance turbo charged cars.

The following is what is used in Mercs sterndrive race engine. One would think the same thought process applies to the Verado.

"Super charger boost is variable. A boost bypass control valve, electronically activated by the PCM 03 microprocessor, continuously adjusts the amount of boost needed to provide consistent horsepower. Under optimum ambient conditions, the boost bypass control valve will open to adjust for the lower boost required to obtain 1075 horsepower. The PCM 03 controller closes the bypass control valve, to provide the additional boost required to maintain a consistent 1075 horsepower when operating in sub-optimal running conditions and limited higher altitude environments. The 1075 SCiís ability to provide a consistent horsepower in any condition or locale eliminates the hassle of re-propping the boat to match conditions. The PCM 03 computer also enables individual cylinder control. This ability to optimize fuel, spark timing and knock control independently for each cylinder enhances engine running quality, performance, fuel economy, and durability. The use of eight independent ignition coils, one per cylinder, helps eliminate spark plug fouling. "



BTW those who say Porsche introduced the supercharger to Merc, it is actually in conjunction with IHI Turbo America, ITA), located in Shelbyville, Il., is a wholly owned subsidiary of IHI (Ishikawajima Harima Heavy Industries, Ltd.) of Tokyo.


News Release!
"IHI Turbo America chosen as supplier of the Supercharger for the Mercury Marine Verado Outboard Engine.
On February 12th at the Miami International Boat Show, Mercury Marine launched the Worlds first supercharged production outboard engine named Verado IHI Turbo America will produce the supercharger for this engine in Shelbyville, Illinois."

BRAD1- That's just it, Pontiac says nothing less then 92 octane, Merc says 87 okay but output will be reduced. If you feel running high octane in a non-modified vehicle that only requires 87 is a benefit, you are spending $$ and getting nothing in return. In fact higher octane in a non modified engine that requires 87 can actually reduce your power, why, because to say it simply, high octane takes a longer time to burn or has a higher flash point. So in todays stock engines that require 87, you possibly can not have a full burn in relationship to engine mechanicals. Throwing potential out the tail pipe. Now of course if you have a modified engine all bets are off.
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Old 10-26-2004, 12:07 PM
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Default RE: 275 VERADO

I got one for ya I have been reading this post and kind of chuckling, everybody has been stating there Suzuki's have just as good if not better holeshot than the 2 stroke DI motors, now in this post I have read that the Verado has a better hole shot than the Suzuki, not sure if this is true but it has been stated above. My problem with all of this is that one of the Bass boat mag's tested two identical Bass boats one with a Verado 250 and the other with an E-TEC 225 and I could be mistaken but I swear they stated the 225 ETEC had a better holeshot by far! Also Mckee recently tested his new 22 hull with twin 140 Zukes and a single 250 ETEC and said the holeshot was better on the ETEC!! ?If this is the case then the Suzuki motors DO NOT have better holeshot than current DI motors of the same horsepower how could they?? So which is it? Are the Suzuki 250's all that? Our are the people who own them blowin smoke as far as acceleration, holeshot because that is what they invested in I for one would surely like to know it is hard enough deciding what motor to drop 15k on.
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Old 10-26-2004, 12:10 PM
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Default RE: 275 VERADO

Thanks Kevin.......I did not know if the compressor ran all the time or shut off at higher rpms. More of low end rpm*enhancment ????.

I'd love*to see one, see how they ram all that stuff under the cowl......

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Old 10-26-2004, 12:16 PM
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Default RE: 275 VERADO

Sim not sure what you mean, I see it as a solenoid opening and closing the waste gate bypass valve, much like a kitchen faucet. The more you open the faucet the less back pressure, you know what I mean. Compressor runs all the time.
Actally I saw one a the Miami show unveiling last year, they do a nice job of keeping everything together.
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Old 10-26-2004, 12:23 PM
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Default RE: 275 VERADO

I can not give you a head to head comparsion just yet on identical power Verados but here is my stats on a 34 ft. 11K boat with twin DF250's. I am absolutely loving these motors on this boat. Hole shot, acceleration, top end is all there. I can comfortably cruise at 35-40mph. WOT is 50mph. Cruise is 1.4mpg. Just giving my 1st hand opinion.



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Old 10-26-2004, 12:41 PM
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Default RE: 275 VERADO

Kevin,

Volvo uses a belt driven supercharger and a turbo on the 4ltr engines(KAD42-43-44 and 300's) It provides low end rpm boost then shuts off(electrical clutch similar to a auto air conditioner clutch)*at around 2800-3000 rpm when the turbo has spooled up to take over the forced air requirments.

I did not know if this is how the compressor on the Verado is setup or if it is always running and by-passing the*unneeded psi. I did not know if the Verado needed the air at higher rpms.

I know when the Volvo supercharger comes on it is very loud.

SIM

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Old 10-26-2004, 02:48 PM
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Default RE: 275 VERADO

Just1more,

Quote:
Harry B....... Blah, blah.........blah, blah........blah, blaaaaaaaaaaahh
Now that was intelligent. Way to counter fact with fact ...not.

Brad1,

OBDII is not the ECM. It has nothing to do with pinging...it merely allows for better troubleshooting.

Harry
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Old 10-26-2004, 02:53 PM
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Default RE: 275 VERADO

Here ya go SIMM not ur self out good overview of whats unders the hood ...... Cheers .......

http://popularmechanics.com/outdoors...ch/print.phtml

http://www.tackletour.com/reviewmerc...dopreview.html

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Old 10-26-2004, 03:29 PM
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Here's one more:

http://www.plasticsnews.com/subscrib...&id=1081171616
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Old 10-26-2004, 03:32 PM
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Default RE: 275 VERADO

What ever the case may be, I really do hope that the Verado's turn out to be great engines.

If I owned one, I'd strive to run nothing but higher octane fuel in it. But I do that in just about every engine I own anyway, regardless of octane rating requirement. Yeah, I know that's not absolutely necessary, but it doesn't do any harm either (other than to spend a few more pennies per gallon). I tend to error on the over kill side I guess. I kinda got hung up on the higher octane fuels when I used to race motocross and my race engines would ping on anything less than Sunoco 94.
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Old 10-26-2004, 03:49 PM
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Default RE: 275 VERADO

Great information on... Verado****

http://forums.screamandfly.com/Gallery/showgallery.php?cat=3031&password=****
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