The Hull Truth - Boating and Fishing Forum

Go Back   The Hull Truth - Boating and Fishing Forum > BOATING FORUMS > The Boating Forum
Search

Notices

Random Quote: Keep the shiney side up !!
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-14-2010, 06:06 PM
  #41    
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,570
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aqua205 View Post
Wow Kerry - please don't assume the USA is ruled and regulated like Australia. I am amazed you have not heard but here is the USA we can still purchase firearms without any licensing hassles - flares are not an issue.

I asked a USCG representative at a local boat show what I should do with old flares and I was told "why don't you keep them in addition to your unexpired flares - you can't have too many flares". Hard to argue with that logic

Bruce
Bruce, So apart being told verbally do you have anything to back that up, it is important to know this.

You see there was this case once where the boating authorities got on the media and made the exact same comment and this pleased many people like yourself with a similar belief.

Well to cut a long story short the boating people had absolutely no say in the matter and quite a few people and organisations had it all completely wrong. They did not understand what the facts were and essentially were giving people incorrect advice.

So what I would like to know is, apart from anything verbal which in past instances was proved completely wrong and totally misleading, so is there any evidence to support the verbal claims? I would be interested in reviewing this info.
__________________
The way forward in life is to first listen .......
Kerry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2010, 06:12 PM
  #42    
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,570
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jitterbug View Post
Kerry, I am from the UK and currently in NZ, neither jurisdiction has, to my knowledge, any legislation to prevent the transport of the quantities of flares we are talking about, either on or off the water.

I cannot quote legislation that doesn't ban an activity, there is nothing to quote. I cannot quote legislation that does not exist. IF you have knowledge of any legislation then quote it, otherwise you do not have knowledge of anything preventing boaters from taking that sensible move and are just scaremongering from a point of no knowledge.

I suspect you have no knowledge of any legsilation in the US, Australia, the UK or NZ so what is your point and what if any support do you have???

You are allowed to walk down the sidewalk - I challenge you to find a piece of legislation that explicitly allows you to do that.... the same logic applies here, if there is no counter legislation then you can do it, whatever "it" is.
In Australia it is illegal to transport out of date flares as they are pyrotechnics, hence explosives and hence come under mining legislation which is under the control of state mines inspectors.

Boating and fisheries have absolutely no say under the mining acts which control these devicies. What the boating and fisheries people are doing is telling people to do something which is illegal.

Somehow I doubt you have actually looked into this matter in any detail?

What I am trying to find out is does this also occur in other countries and quite frankly I haven't heard anything that supports it one way or another apart from "what he said", "what I was told" type of stuff which is a rather a useless argument.
__________________
The way forward in life is to first listen .......
Kerry is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Old 11-14-2010, 06:14 PM
  #43    
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 26
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
Bruce, So apart being told verbally do you have anything to back that up, it is important to know this.

You see there was this case once where the boating authorities got on the media and made the exact same comment and this pleased many people like yourself with a similar belief.

Well to cut a long story short the boating people had absolutely no say in the matter and quite a few people and organisations had it all completely wrong. They did not understand what the facts were and essentially were giving people incorrect advice.

So what I would like to know is, apart from anything verbal which in past instances was proved completely wrong and totally misleading, so is there any evidence to support the verbal claims? I would be interested in reviewing this info.
No Kerry, you have inferred that this is a worldwide illegal activity, YOU provide substantiating evidence for that point of view. Stories??? Cases??? You have quoted nothing that indicates it is unwise or illegal.
Jitterbug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2010, 06:18 PM
  #44    
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: East Central Florida
Posts: 6,824
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aqua205 View Post
Wow Kerry - please don't assume the USA is ruled and regulated like Australia. I am amazed you have not heard but here is the USA we can still purchase firearms without any licensing hassles - flares are not an issue.

I asked a USCG representative at a local boat show what I should do with old flares and I was told "why don't you keep them in addition to your unexpired flares - you can't have too many flares". Hard to argue with that logic

Bruce
Good point. In my jurisdiction it would be entirely legal for a citizen to carry a Glock 9mm with 17 round magazines and 500 rounds of ammo on board.
Seacat FL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2010, 06:22 PM
  #45    
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 26
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
In Australia it is illegal to transport out of date flares as they are pyrotechnics, hence explosives and hence come under mining legislation which is under the control of state mines inspectors.

Boating and fisheries have absolutely no say under the mining acts which control these devicies. What the boating and fisheries people are doing is telling people to do something which is illegal.

Somehow I doubt you have actually looked into this matter in any detail?

What I am trying to find out is does this also occur in other countries and quite frankly I haven't heard anything that supports it one way or another apart from "what he said", "what I was told" type of stuff which is a rather a useless argument.
You posted while I was posting so my apologies. Yes I have looked into it in some detail both with the MCA and the HSE in the UK, neither prevents the UK population holding fireworks (which is the nearest specified to flares). Does your Mining Act even cover flares on boats or is it aimed at land transport???

You seems to have an issue with how the Mining Act relates to boating and fishing in Australia but to suggest that therefore there must be a similar issue worldwide is frankly ridiculous.

The relevant legislation in the UK doesn't apply to the quantities that would be carried on any vessel, most areas of the legislation quotes 500Kg and above but you can search for that yourself if you have the incentive. The UK MCA constantly refers to the legislation preventing them from storing and collecting out of date flares but does not make any issue of individuals continuing to hold them. You are familiar with UK Guy Fawkes Night I presume, well that runs under the same legislation as recreational boating...

Now that is as cleared up as it is going to get (I suspect), do you consider it a prudent move to hold a set of just-expired flares onboard in addition to the in-date set (which themselves aren't required by any UK laws to be onboard)???
Jitterbug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2010, 06:23 PM
  #46    
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 26
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seacat FL View Post
Good point. In my jurisdiction it would be entirely legal for a citizen to carry a Glock 9mm with 17 round magazines and 500 rounds of ammo on board.
Bet you can keep them next to your flares too....and the whole lot next to the gas hob!
Jitterbug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2010, 06:23 PM
  #47    
Admirals Club
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mansfield Ma
Posts: 1,619
Default

Kerry, if the United States Coast Guard says it is ok to have expired flares on board then its ok. They are the authority in the world of boating in the US. Trust me they are not afraid to tell you if something on the boat is dangerous or not allowed. They know what they are talking about. Lets not confuse dynamite and flares. I don't think they would let Joe Public buy something that if kept after experation date could potentialy explode.

I keep all my expired flares in a seperate container from my non-expired flares on the boat. I learned this from a very experienced boater and believe it is perfectly safe. With all the people in the boating world on here, I would think we would have had a story about expired flares exploding and harming people by now.

Just my two cents.

P.S. Kerry can you google what a period or a comma does? They would make your posts much simpler to read. Although not any more convincing.
Stickbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2010, 06:41 PM
  #48    
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,570
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickbo View Post
Kerry, if the United States Coast Guard says it is ok to have expired flares on board then its ok. They are the authority in the world of boating in the US.
That thinking is NO different to what people thought over here.


Quote:
Trust me they are not afraid to tell you if something on the boat is dangerous or not allowed. They know what they are talking about.
That was what people thought over here, they didn't and again is there any evidence to support your claim?

Quote:
Lets not confuse dynamite and flares.
No we are talking about legal requirements, heresay and what is legal can be quite different.

Quote:
I don't think they would let Joe Public buy something that if kept after experation date could potentialy explode.
That is why there is an expiry date, whay they are repalced after this expiry date and why the old ones should not be kept.

Quote:
I learned this from a very experienced boater and believe it is perfectly safe.
hersay

Quote:
With all the people in the boating world on here, I would think we would have had a story about expired flares exploding and harming people by now.
Yes well here's hoping we get someone who does have the facts, not hersay.
__________________
The way forward in life is to first listen .......
Kerry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2010, 07:22 PM
  #49    
Admirals Club
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mansfield Ma
Posts: 1,619
Default

/
Stickbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2010, 09:13 PM
  #50    
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Fuquay-Varina, NC/OINC
Posts: 133
Default

First let me say that if there is a Household Hazardous Waste collection station in your town or county, please contact them. I run one, and collect old flares. We dispose of them as a Flammable Solid. The handhelds flares are labeled as "Fusee", which is the DOT proper shipping name for railroad and highway flares. Aerial flares are listed by DOT as explosives. We do not accept explosives at HHW sites.

The transportation of all hazardous materials are regulated by the Department of Transportation. This is outlined in 49 CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) part 171.

Disposal of all hazardous material is governed by the EPA. Their tomes are too numerous to mention.

Since they are considered a flammable solid, the same as a book of matches, you can carry around consumer amounts with you (not on a plane!). Most truckers have them in the cab for roadside emergencies. When you start transporting large quantities then more regulations and rules come in to play.

By the way, I am a licensed blaster. Used to detonate shock sensitive chemicals, DOD materials, cylinders and ordinance for private and government entities.

Again, this should cover handheld flares but doesn't cover aerial ones. If the city or county does not have a program like ours, google the area for environmental companies. Disposal companies - not consultants! They may have a cost effective way to dispose of them or check with a local marina to see if they would accept them for a fee. The marina could get a small quantity generator exemption easily and everyone share the cost of getting rid of your old flares.
__________________
____________________________________
People learn things when I drink.
chumley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2010, 10:06 PM
  #51    
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,570
Default

Chumley,

Thank you very much for that. Hopefully could you qualify if there is any specific distinction in the US made between Expired/Out-of-date and current/in-date flares re "carrying around comsumer amounts"?

I suppose the basic query is are out-of-date flares considered illegal to retain/transport etc?
__________________
The way forward in life is to first listen .......
Kerry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2010, 12:37 AM
  #52    
Admirals Club
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 34
Default

You want the facts Kerry, here's the facts.

The attached MSDS is for the standard Orion marine flare.

40 C.F.R. 261 makes no reference to expiration dates. Only that they are stored properly. (the reg is too long and difficult to read to post here. Here is the link. http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/w...cfr261_01.html)

Here is a link to what the government in Oz has done. http://www.fishnet.com.au/forums/vie...c59b2a1758&f=0 Sounds to me like they are just as bright as some of our elected blowfficials. Though a bunch of Aussies and the NSW boating manual recommend keeping expired flares as back up.

The DOT also makes no recommendation as to the transport of expired hand held flares, or fusees. Still looking for the regs on aerial flares.
Attached Images
    
__________________

Last edited by waterdog247; 11-15-2010 at 01:32 AM.
waterdog247 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2010, 01:05 AM
  #53    
Admirals Club
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 34
Default

Here is the MSDS for Orion 25mm Meteor.

C.F.R. 27 Volume I Section 55.141 (http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/w...7cfr55_02.html) states;

(a) General. Except for the provisions of Secs. 55.180 and 55.181,
this part does not apply to:
(1) Any aspect of the transportation of explosive materials via
railroad, water, highway, or air which is regulated by the U.S.
Department of Transportation and its agencies, and which pertains to
safety.

Again, I reiterate, the DOT makes no reference to expired aerial flares as being illegal to transport.

more to follow
Attached Images
    
__________________
waterdog247 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2010, 01:17 AM
  #54    
Admirals Club
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 34
Default

DOT states no where in this reg (http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regul...px?menukey=397) that expiration dates suddenly make pyrotechnics illegal to transport.

Part 172.101 "Purpose and use of hazardous materials table" makes no mention of expiration dates. http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regul...=r49CFR172.101

Part 171.8: "Definitions and abbreviations" makes no specification towards expiration dates. http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regul...eg=r49CFR171.8

And last but not least;
Part 386: "Rules of practice for motor carrier, broker, freight forwarder, and hazardous materials proceedings" makes no reference to expiration dates. http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regul...px?menukey=386


Sorry Kerry, there's your proof.
__________________
waterdog247 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2010, 02:44 AM
  #55    
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,570
Default

Quote:
Sorry Kerry, there's your proof.
That's all good and thanks for spending the time on it, yes that's the sort of supporting info required as opposed to all the hersay stuff which are a dime a dozen.
__________________
The way forward in life is to first listen .......
Kerry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2010, 04:41 AM
  #56    
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location:
Posts: 230
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
That's all good and thanks for spending the time on it, yes that's the sort of supporting info required as opposed to all the hersay stuff which are a dime a dozen.
Speaking of documentation, this thread "proves" that a lot of folks, especially you, Mr. Kerry, have way too much time on their hands, and definitely don't want to "lose" any argument, no matter how silly it may be.

For the vast majority of THT posters, what goes on in Australia regarding flares doesn't matter much regarding our boats in the U.S.A. Nice to know, sort of, but not worth an argument.

EJ
EJAngler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2010, 05:14 AM
  #57    
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 343
Default

What makes an out of date flare, which may have a harder time burning more dangerous then having a bunch of extra in date well burning flares? Got boarded by the U.S.C.G. and they were quite happy I had extra flares, both in and out of date!
DIVER2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2010, 07:31 AM
  #58    
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 1,662
Default

I think you will find that Kerry is very good at asking questions, but not so good at answering them.

There is no Federal or Florida statute, regulation or administrative code that prevents me from carrying my expired flares on my boat.

Kerry, please provide evidence that carrying expired flares on your vessel in the waters of a US state or in US Federal waters is illegal.
__________________
2004 Grady White 228G - F225
G8RDave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2010, 08:17 AM
  #59    
nsh
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 3,303
Default

All of my old flares are in the boat along with current ones. If i ever ever git rid of any i will soak them in a bucket of water for a while then throw them. Why are some things made so complicated?
nsh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2010, 08:24 AM
  #60    
Admirals Club
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 164
Default

If you have storage, keep them on your boat. If you ever need them you will be glad you kept them.
Madhavok is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 



©2009 TheHullTruth.com

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0