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Old 09-28-2004, 10:10 AM
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Default Rebuild or replace Crusaders?

It's time to re-power my 89 Blackfin 27 Combi. The boat has original 1988 FWC Crusader 270 HP 350's. After a lot of thought and some shopping I have decided to stick with the gas Crusaders. (No way I'm going to do diesels, too much $$ with little advantage for me.)

My question is, do I buy new Crusaders or completely rebuild the existing Crusader engines?

Facts are:
Counter rotating FWC engines have 1500+ hours
Starboard engine broke the timing chain.
Cooling systems are functional but need to be replaced.
We like the boat and plan now is to keep it for at least ten years.
We plan to do both engines. We are a put-the-key-in-it-and-go kind of boaters.
The rebuilds would be done by a reputable Crusader dealer who rebuilds marine engines for a living.
Even with the cost of new engines we wouldn't have so much invested in the boat that we would lose a lot of money if we sold.

There is a considerable cost savings rebuilding vs. replacing, maybe $8000 total. But, because I'm going to keep the boat for a long time it's not such a huge factor. Further, when I do sell the boat, I would be more attracted to a listing with new replacements in 2005 than to a listing of completely rebuilt in 2005. So, I'm leaning towards the new Crusaders.

I know the Crusader web site. Pascoe doesn't really discuss replace vs. rebuild. Does anyone have any other BB's or web sites that discuss the pro's and con's of what I'm considering?
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Old 09-28-2004, 10:22 AM
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Default RE: Rebuild or replace Crusaders?

we bought two jasper engine long blocks (350s) for my friends boat for 1800.00 a piece. u just reuse ur intake,starter, alt, waterpump.etc.
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Old 09-28-2004, 10:35 AM
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Default RE: Rebuild or replace Crusaders?

What is your budget?



I bought new Crusader "325hp Power Packs"*Vortec 5.7L*for $3600.00 apiece.



Comes complete with the dist. plugs wires, carb*just bolt on your trans, cooling system, alternator, 12volts*and fuel.*



If you can find a Soundings Magazine out there you'll find the ad for a Distributor in Mass.



Iíll try and find the name and number for you.



Are you sure the engines are counter rotating? One gear will usually be counter rotating with the engines turning the same direction. But if you do have one counter rotating engine itís not a problem they just cost a few hundred more.



Dave *



*
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Old 09-28-2004, 10:36 AM
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Default RE: Rebuild or replace Crusaders?

I would go with complete new engines, "out ot the box" for the following reasons: 1.) The existing blocks are old, and there must be some corrosion in the water jackets, 2.) With NEW complete engines, you could get a warranty package that could cover you for at least 5 years, if not more, 3.) Now would be a great time to "up-grade" any wiring issue in the engine compartment. Do the job once, and do it right! ----- Just my opinion.----------- ( I have a 1999 27' Doral cruiser with a 7.4 ? Bravo 3 package. If I needed an engine, I would get a new complete package installed from MerCruiser with warranties. If the 7.4 was no longer available, I would go with the recommendation of my MerCruiser dealer. Probably a 8.1.)
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Old 09-28-2004, 10:59 AM
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Default RE: Rebuild or replace Crusaders?

I think you answered the question when you said...

Quote:
We like the boat and plan now is to keep it for at least ten years.
We plan to do both engines. We are a put-the-key-in-it-and-go kind of boaters.
Go with a new pair of EFI's and enjoy!

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Old 09-28-2004, 11:04 AM
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Default RE: Rebuild or replace Crusaders?

i agree with megabyte the new crusaders fuel injection you will get a comparable burn gph to a diesel the diesel will get slightly better gph of course
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Old 09-28-2004, 11:05 AM
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Default RE: Rebuild or replace Crusaders?

Sail I suppose you know these new engines these guys are talking about are not counter rotating. Therefore you will need new trannies. Oh they forgot the the engine/tranny lenght is different so now you need new shafts. Because the trannies are different you may have to change the engine beds to match the stuffing boxes. You have to get the right angle you know. Looks to me rebuilds are a good option. If you have to go through all that other crap you should just get diesels. You know rebuilt diesels are not all that expensive. Good luck
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Old 09-28-2004, 11:12 AM
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Default RE: Rebuild or replace Crusaders?

Sail,



The engine/tranny length will remain the same as it is now. The only difference between the two is that the Vortec engine needs about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch more height clearance due to the high rise manifold.



The Vortec 5.7L is avail. in a counter*rotation model, like I said it is a few hundred more. **

*

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Old 09-28-2004, 12:21 PM
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Default RE: Rebuild or replace Crusaders?

DavidD,

I would like to stay under $20,000 for the whole job, but will spend what it takes to get what I think is best. That being said, I don't like to waste money either.

The power pack doesn't make sense for me. We need new risers & manifolds any ways. The starters are rebuilt 2-3 years ago. I think the alternators are original. While everything is running (Except the timing chain on Starboard) I don't have a high level of confidence in the existing hang on components. I will probably replace everything if we rebuild any ways.

Crusader 5.7L is available power pack, carb and efi, with and without tranny's. All are available with Counter rotation. One of my existing engines does run "backwards." It is not counter rotating because of the transmission. While I'm not positive, I believe you can get any engine with any tranny. The Borg Warner tranny is set up for the engine to be installed at zero degrees, tranny has the down angle built in. The Velvet drive transmission is for engines installed at the down angle with a straight tranny. (That's what I have now.)

Before I needed engines I was already going to replace the shafts and cutlass bearings this winter. (Still have to do it with new engines.)
Replace a section of outboard stringer that is wet. (Cheaper to do the work now with the engine out.)

I have at least two you-might-as-wells
1) Because the engine's will be new/rebuilt I am also going to replace the corroded motor mounts (Common B Finn problem.)
2) Maybe replace all the gauges & dash. They are looking tired and corroded
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Old 09-28-2004, 12:33 PM
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Default RE: Rebuild or replace Crusaders?

I agree if your going to spend what it takes to get the best than go with*new EFI Crusader's with*gears.

You'll be set for the life of the boat!

Good luck

Dave
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Old 09-28-2004, 01:10 PM
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Default RE: Rebuild or replace Crusaders?

The new Crusaders are very nice engines and your boat is definitely worth the investment. I would make one suggestion; however, there are still 7.4 MPIs available in the crate or with very little use. I personally like the old 454 block for its known durability and longevity. I sure the Vortec head will prove to be okay, but you may be able to get a very good deal on late model 7.4s. There are several internet listings for Crusader that may be worth checking out.
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Old 09-28-2004, 01:58 PM
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Default RE: Rebuild or replace Crusaders?

If you are comparing costs from one to the other, are you considering the age of the other vital componets that could be worth replacing like the altenator, starter, carbs, external fuel pumps, distributor, and engine wiring.
Unless you have replaced these recently, I would add their replacement, rebuild, or full service cost to the cost of a rebuild to know that the whole system was reliable.
If you get your new total rebuild cost, I would then divide it by a factor of .6, as you will probably have to do it again, or go new after the next 1000 hors, instead of 1500 hrs on a new one, then also add about 30% to the cost of fuel in those 1000 hrs of use, then ask yourself if you want to do this again in 12 years, or 18 years when thinking rebuild versus new.
And this is saying that you will not try to sell any of the old stuff to help pay for the new.
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Old 09-28-2004, 03:27 PM
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Default RE: Rebuild or replace Crusaders?

Sail Commodore

I just repowered with the 5.7L Classic Series Carbeurated engines. They are complete, only reused the trannies. GPH is alittle better than with the 1986 Model 270's, but the get up and go is incredible. My cost was 16K and the job was done in 2 weeks.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

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Old 09-28-2004, 03:33 PM
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Default RE: Rebuild or replace Crusaders?

It rarely is the basic blocks that cause problems/ruin trips....you are nearing the usable live of all the hang-on stuff, especially in salt water, risers/manifolds/pumps/trannys/hoses/belts/hoses/etc.....some of this stuff can be rebuilt but what do you want to end up with....the new efi packages are great.....a total repower will restore your blackfin into a trustworthy, more economical craft, add up what it actually costs to rebuild your units completely compared to new units and decide....happy boating...Mick
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Old 09-28-2004, 05:28 PM
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Default RE: Rebuild or replace Crusaders?

For some reason I was thinking 454's. I need to get back on my medicine. Or get off the stuff that causes the voices.
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Old 09-29-2004, 07:57 AM
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Default RE: Rebuild or replace Crusaders?

Quote:
dwm - 9/28/2004 4:27 PM

Sail Commodore

I just repowered with the 5.7L Classic Series Carbeurated engines. They are complete, only reused the trannies. GPH is alittle better than with the 1986 Model 270's, but the get up and go is incredible. My cost was 16K and the job was done in 2 weeks.

Good luck with whatever you decide.
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Old 09-30-2004, 08:50 PM
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Default RE: Rebuild or replace Crusaders?

Just a comment on going to the 7.4. I repowered my Pro-line last year with a VP 5.7 (320hp) from a 1998 7.4 (310 hp). Both are Multi port FI. The 5.7 has higher compression and is about 200 pounds lighter. Less torque so I gave up about 4 knots top end. But fuel economy is up 15-20%!!!! And more room to work on the engine. I am definately pleased.

I would opt for new FI engines. Overheat and low oil pressure alarm, self protect mode, knock sensors for optimum ignition timing.....just no comparison to old motors.

Warren
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