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Old 10-14-2010, 12:40 AM
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Exclamation The Year Boat Manufacturers Went From A Wood Floor to a Composite Floor

Hey guys my goal here is to start a list of boat manufacturers who went from a wood floor to a composite floor. Mainly what was the last year say for example Hydrasport stopped using wood on their floors and the first year they started making them out of composite. All makes from Mako, Proline, Hydrasport, Seaway etc. Some manufacturers still use wood on their floors and I want to help boaters recognize which ones do. Thanks, Ryan.
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Old 10-14-2010, 04:39 AM
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Default You Do, Or You want us to do it?

What about wood stringers or transoms? Some name brand boats still use balsa core. thats wood.
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Old 10-14-2010, 04:50 AM
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Hey guys my goal here is to start a list of boat manufacturers who went from a wood floor to a composite floor. Mainly what was the last year say for example Hydrasport stopped using wood on their floors and the first year they started making them out of composite. All makes from Mako, Proline, Hydrasport, Seaway etc. Some manufacturers still use wood on their floors and I want to help boaters recognize which ones do. Thanks, Ryan.
Ryan,
As for PRO-LINE, no wood in the structure anywhere, 1994 calender year, 1995 model year product.
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Old 10-14-2010, 05:11 AM
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Is the intention to create a "caveat emptor" or "grey list"...?

For your consideration: Wood does have some properties that argue for its use... I have owned boats that have used some wood and and some that did not. The only boat I have ever had a problem with was a (non-wood) boat that slowly developed a list due to water intrusion and wet foam along one side but that has more to do with the way it was made and less so the materials.
My point being, casual perusers of this thread may get the wrong message that wood in a boat is something to be avoided at all costs. We are increasingly a becoming a culture of soundbites and hot button issues (we often vote on candidates for public office based on their position on one, maybe two issues rather than considering their record overall). I personally would buy a well cared for wood cored decked (but never a cored hull!!) boat over a neglected or poorly made composite constructed boat.
Also, Some manufacturers have phased out wood over time, starting with certain models taking several years to complete the transition.
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Old 10-14-2010, 05:36 AM
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Is the intention to create a "caveat emptor" or "grey list"...?

For your consideration: Wood does have some properties that argue for its use... I have owned boats that have used some wood and and some that did not. The only boat I have ever had a problem with was a (non-wood) boat that slowly developed a list due to water intrusion and wet foam along one side but that has more to do with the way it was made and less so the materials.
My point being, casual perusers of this thread may get the wrong message that wood in a boat is something to be avoided at all costs. We are increasingly a becoming a culture of soundbites and hot button issues (we often vote on candidates for public office based on their position on one, maybe two issues rather than considering their record overall). I personally would buy a well cared for wood cored decked (but never a cored hull!!) boat over a neglected or poorly made composite constructed boat.
Also, Some manufacturers have phased out wood over time, starting with certain models taking several years to complete the transition.
PRO-LINE no wood. DONZI, has wood. Same company.
I dont think the intent of the thread is anti wood. Wood vs. composite goe's more to purpose and need than which is best in a general sense.
In the case of fiberglass outboard fishing boats, the public overall doe's not want wood, and I'm in total agreement, absolute and total agreement. In the case of DONZI, my oppisite number there is just as firm in his belief as to wood.
Many excellant brands, very well built product, some have wood, some dont.
Saying all of the above, my customer doe's not want wood in the structure, nor do we.
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Old 10-14-2010, 06:55 AM
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I think Steiger went to an all fiberglass floor in 1996. Can't give you much more detail then that. Of course I have a 1993.
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Old 10-14-2010, 07:01 AM
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There is no ONE year they all switched. There are still some using wood floors, transoms, stringers today. Can't speak for any other for sure, but Key West went wood free in 1994. Some NEVER used it from day one.
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Old 10-14-2010, 11:38 AM
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Bly you are right balsa core is still used by some manfacturers such as Mako up to a few years ago. I know some manfacturers didn't all switch in the same year. If you could put the last year these manufacturers used a wood floor and the first year they used a composite floor. I am just trying to create a list that me and other boaters alike can use because it seems like a list of this sort would come in handy for people buying new and used boats. I know a lot of boaters don't want to touch a boat with a wood floor and I think it would be good to identify these manufacturers. Nevertheless I don't want to take away from the great boat manufacturers who still use a wood construction i.e. Parker Boats which are real nice. I mainly want to point out floors but wood stringers and transoms feel free to point out. Thanks, Ryan.
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Old 10-14-2010, 11:46 AM
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There is no ONE year they all switched. There are still some using wood floors, transoms, stringers today. Can't speak for any other for sure, but Key West went wood free in 1994. Some NEVER used it from day one.
And some, like Rybovich, never STOPPED using it from day one.
I have a question about foam. How does it have "structural" properties if it is closed cell, flexible and designed not to absorb anything? Does it still absorb resin? if not, it seems to me that it is more "spacer" than "structural.
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Old 10-14-2010, 06:40 PM
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And some, like Rybovich, never STOPPED using it from day one.
I have a question about foam. How does it have "structural" properties if it is closed cell, flexible and designed not to absorb anything? Does it still absorb resin? if not, it seems to me that it is more "spacer" than "structural.
Foam core provides light weight strength through thickness. Thickness provides strength through rigidity, i.e. thin skins of glass separated by a core.
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Old 10-14-2010, 07:07 PM
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my next boat will be made entirely of wood and will most likely outlast the average non-wood sportfish of today

so who cares who uses wood or not
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Old 10-14-2010, 07:11 PM
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Old 10-14-2010, 07:12 PM
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Default A Rybovich like most all other custom boats are made with epoxy resin

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And some, like Rybovich, never STOPPED using it from day one.
I have a question about foam. How does it have "structural" properties if it is closed cell, flexible and designed not to absorb anything? Does it still absorb resin? if not, it seems to me that it is more "spacer" than "structural.
Epoxy like vinylester resin is water proof. Most production fiberglass boats are built with non water proof polyester resin.Balsa coring and polyester resin is the stupidist thing a boat builder could do.
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Old 10-15-2010, 07:32 AM
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And some, like Rybovich, never STOPPED using it from day one.
I have a question about foam. How does it have "structural" properties if it is closed cell, flexible and designed not to absorb anything? Does it still absorb resin? if not, it seems to me that it is more "spacer" than "structural.
It's not a good idea at all to discuss foam, structure, and the like without fully understanding what specific foams/plastics are being used for what purpose.
Two primary concerns as to a fiberglass hull, using foams and plastics.
Sheer Modules
Flex Modules
What weight and what foam for what purpose.
We might use a 4 pound closed cell for a purpose, a six pound for a purpose, a ten pound for a purpose.
The decisions as to what weight for what purpose, in our case, is a decision reached in conjuncture with who we think, is the best laminate engineer in the trade, who owns the leading plastic and foam companies that many of us buy from, COMPYS, and PRISMA. We think, with no question, the best engineer in the business. Ongoing tests from 1997 with one of our 20' hulls. Load tests on the hull from 1997 to date. Properties are almost identical, 1997 to now.
Less than 1/2 of 1% water intrusion, load factor just about identical to 1997.
I dont know how to top that kind of track record.
We dont think the hull has any natural enemies. We think the hull is going to last for an amount of time that we cant even venture a guess. "Forever" maybe, who knows?
Wood vs. plastics can be argued til the cows come home. Lot's of opinions. Our's, at PRO-LINE is very-very firm, and we place our companies existance on it.
BTW, and just an FYI, foams and plastics are far more expensive to use than wood. Far more. Our experiance, far less. Why? Much less, far less, warranty issues later on. Very high customer satisfaction level. Much higher resale value when there's no rot issues to contend with.
And, I dont care what brand names are used re wood. Dont care how well the wood is encapsulated, dont care how much resin covers the wood, or the wood drinks. Dont care what the so called "tier" is. When it comes to a twenty year old boat, wood vs. plastics, a ten year old boat for that matter, our $$$ goe's to plastics.
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Old 10-15-2010, 10:12 AM
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Foam core provides light weight strength through thickness. Thickness provides strength through rigidity, i.e. thin skins of glass separated by a core.
So are you saying that the foam is a "spacer" as opposed to an actually structural materail like mahogany or okume?
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Old 10-15-2010, 10:35 AM
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How about a list of boat makers that use aluminum tanks versus those that use plastic tanks?

A list of boats that use wood in the transom vesus those that don't?

A list of those that use tin plated wire versus those that don't?

A list of those that use anti-siphon valves versus those that don't?

And so on and so forth.

To quote the man above, Oh jeez, not this shit again!
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Old 10-15-2010, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by mike carrigan
Quote: Originally Posted by jdm61 And some, like Rybovich, never STOPPED using it from day one. I have a question about foam. How does it have "structural" properties if it is closed cell, flexible and designed not to absorb anything? Does it still absorb resin? if not, it seems to me that it is more "spacer" than "structural. It's not a good idea at all to discuss foam, structure, and the like without fully understanding what specific foams/plastics are being used for what purpose. Two primary concerns as to a fiberglass hull, using foams and plastics. Sheer Modules Flex Modules What weight and what foam for what purpose. We might use a 4 pound closed cell for a purpose, a six pound for a purpose, a ten pound for a purpose. The decisions as to what weight for what purpose, in our case, is a decision reached in conjuncture with who we think, is the best laminate engineer in the trade, who owns the leading plastic and foam companies that many of us buy from, COMPYS, and PRISMA. We think, with no question, the best engineer in the business. Ongoing tests from 1997 with one of our 20' hulls. Load tests on the hull from 1997 to date. Properties are almost identical, 1997 to now. Less than 1/2 of 1% water intrusion, load factor just about identical to 1997. I dont know how to top that kind of track record. We dont think the hull has any natural enemies. We think the hull is going to last for an amount of time that we cant even venture a guess. "Forever" maybe, who knows? Wood vs. plastics can be argued til the cows come home. Lot's of opinions. Our's, at PRO-LINE is very-very firm, and we place our companies existance on it. BTW, and just an FYI, foams and plastics are far more expensive to use than wood. Far more. Our experiance, far less. Why? Much less, far less, warranty issues later on. Very high customer satisfaction level. Much higher resale value when there's no rot issues to contend with. And, I dont care what brand names are used re wood. Dont care how well the wood is encapsulated, dont care how much resin covers the wood, or the wood drinks. Dont care what the so called "tier" is. When it comes to a twenty year old boat, wood vs. plastics, a ten year old boat for that matter, our $$$ goe's to plastics.
And plastics degrade in sunlight. Is your test hull inside or outside?
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Old 10-15-2010, 10:47 AM
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How about a list of boat makers that use aluminum tanks versus those that use plastic tanks?

A list of boats that use wood in the transom vesus those that don't?

A list of those that use tin plated wire versus those that don't?

A list of those that use anti-siphon valves versus those that don't?

And so on and so forth.

To quote the man above, Oh jeez, not this shit again!
I'm not all that sure it's a bad question or topic.
I'm employed by a company that owns four boat manufacturing companies. Some of the companies use wood, some dont.
I think it's a legtimite subject.
Our companies have all: Wood transoms, Coosa and foam.
We use plastic and aluminum tanks.
PRO-LINE wireing is tinned
I think anti-siphon valves are now required.
People use forums to ask questions, exchange idea's, agree, disagree, it's all good. I think lots of people learn some stuff from Forums.
The only people who I am kinda cautous of are those that presume they're experts. I'm sure not.
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Old 10-15-2010, 10:53 AM
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And plastics degrade in sunlight. Is your test hull inside or outside?
Outside, in use since new in 1997.
It's the personal boat of Scott's, owner of COMPSYS and PRISMA, frequent contributer COMPOSITE MAGAZINE, perhaps the most recognized and respected composite engineer in the industry.
I think of the four that are considered the best, three of the four would defer to Scott, and do all the time.
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Old 10-15-2010, 05:57 PM
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Mike, wood is as good as composite, I have been working since 1988 for a manufacture of Polyurethane and than in the early 1989 we started Polyisocyanurate (better fire rated).
and all poly will hold some water some more than others, ours is one of the less water absorption in the industries as per ASTM C272. Every cell you open when cut or modified.

Now like always a bad workmanship will reflect everywhere with wood or composite.
COMPSYS and PRISMA works with manufactures of the Polyurethane/Polyisocyanurate like Bayer, Dow, Huntsman, ITW, Duna and us.
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