*THE HULL TRUTH is the world's largest FREE network for the discussion of Boating & Fishing. Whether you're researching a new boat, or are a seasoned Captain, you'll find The Hull Truth Boating & Fishing Message Forum contains a wealth of information from Boaters and Sportfishermen around the world.
Welcome to the updated THT!
If you are having trouble signing in, please email feedback@thehulltruth.com with your username and we will help you. We thank you for your patience as we help you access the new site!
Random Quote: Went Fishing be back for Deer hunting season !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OK, help me out here and clarify something for me.
I live in Florida and just bought a house on the water and need some work done to the existing dock and have a lift installed. I call a dock builder/lift installer and he comes to my home and we discuss what I want. He puts together an estimate that says I will need X materials at X cost and X hours of labor at a cost of X per hour. The estimate is all inclusive of materials and labor. I agree and we draw up a contract in which I give him X to start, X midway through and X when he completes the job.
As agreed, I give him X to start the job and he shows up with a trailer loaded with materials. He installs the materials, that he brought with him, and does a great job. I'm satisfied and make the final payment.
Can the supplier then put a lein against my property if the materials were brought to the job site by the contractor? Or is it only applicable if the supplier delivered the materials to the property themselves?
My thought would be that if materials were included in the estimate and brought to the job site by the contractor, then the supplier has a beef with the contractor, not me.
As agreed, I give him X to start the job and he shows up with a trailer loaded with materials (THAT HE HAS NOT YET PAID FOR BUT OBTAINED ON CREDIT). He installs the materials, that he brought with him, and does a great job. I'm satisfied and make the final payment.
Can the supplier then put a lein against my property if the materials were brought to the job site by the contractor? (YES) Or is it only applicable if the supplier delivered the materials to the property themselves? (NO)
My thought would be that if materials were included in the estimate and brought to the job site by the contractor, then the supplier has a beef with the contractor, not me.
The supplier does have his primary beef with the contractor, but he can look to you for payment if the contractor stiffs him. Once you understand this, it is easy to protect yourself. There are various ways to do this as others have pointed out ... lien releases from suppliers before final payment ... or passage of time. Another option is to pay the supplier directly for all of the significant material costs. If your contractor hesitates to agree to this ... then I'd insist upon lien release prior to final payment.
I'm a commercial GC. We require release of liens from all subcontractors, tier subcontractors and suppliers on a monthly basis. No release, no payment. On large value contracts, we bond our major subcontractors. We also use joint check agreements to ensure suppliers are paid with our money. Need to do everything to protect yourself.
I currently have about 60 residential contractors/home builders as accounts in the state of NJ. Only the large contractors (ie: toll brothers etc) use lein wavers with their subs. Most of the mid to small sized operations dont do it. I have placed many many leins on peoples homes who in good faith (like the op) paid their contractor in full. It sucks, i feel sorry for the honest people that already paid but its the law here. The supplier has every right to place that lein. This places the blame solely on the homeower who is supposed to know who he/she is hiring and to do some research and check them out first. There will always be a few exceptions but most of the time if the company that you hired was check out by getting refferals, bbb etc it might have been avoided!!
You can also ask the contractor to give you the name and phone number of your supplier and call and ask if they are in good standings. I have been asked that a few times and had no problem with it.
Did you ask for a certificate of insurance?? Yes it only covers if someone gets hurt but if they are paying those high premiums they are probably paying the other as well.
Good luck with your situation!!
__________________
2006 Skeeter ZX24 Bay
2006 Yamaha 300 HPDI
2008 Ford F-150 FX4 5.4
Team: FINE DINING --~ <)))))<
I hope the information I can provide will be of some help to you all:
Let em start by saying I am not an attorney. I am a large commercial general contractor and deal directly with lien law in a multitude of states.
Since so many of you seem piqued by the OP's situation, lets see if I can shed some light on the particulars of protecting yourself in FL.
Florida requires that a project's owner record a "Notice of Commencement" (NOC). Provided this notice is filed, any subcontractor, sub-subcontractor, supplier, vendor, or materialman is allowed 45 days from the date on which they commence work or deliver equipment or materials to the project in which to provide a "Notice to Owner" (NTO). The NTO is for the Owner's and suppliers/ vendors/ etc benefit. If the NOC is not filed by the owner, the vendors lien rights are not subject to the same time requirements. The FL laws are a bit fuzzy to me on this, but basically, I understand the the FL law to be that if an Owner does not file a NOC a Vendor, Supplier, Etc is allowed 45 days from the date on which the last work was performed or materials delivered to the site to file a "Claim of Lien" (Lien). I dont know the FL Lien foreclosure timeframe off hand, but I suspect its 90 days to 1 year as it is in most states. Foreclosure of the Lien is a much bigger problem than is a Lien. A lien is merely an encumbrance on the property that must be cleared in order to sell or transfer rights (even though your mortgage company or other would have you believe diferently). However, the Contractor's, Suppliers, Vendors, etc rights to to get the outstanding issue which caused the Lien filing resolved is called a "Foreclosure of Lien". The Lienor attempts to Foreclose the Lien by having the property foreclosed and sold so he can get himself paid.
I think I am rambling a bit. Let me put this simply for homeowners and small contractors.
File a NOC on EVERY project you do. Doing so will help ensure that Vendors, Suppliers, etc know who to contact to file a NTO. It is my understanding that if the NOC is filed, and the vendors etc dont provide the required NTO's, they can attempt to file a Lien, but you can have same discharged because the NTO wasnt provided per the legal requirements. This is an enormous measure of protection for the property owner; one because it prevents situations like that of the OP from turning into unimaginable nightmares and two beacuse it provides an avenue for the Owner to know from whom a Release of Lien should be obtained before releasing final payment.
One other thing that I might note. Always make sure that you have a lien security clause in the contract you execute with ANY general contractor. Additonally, ensure that the Contractor spell out exactly what work they are going to perform and for what price. If you, the owner, ever get a lien filed, I suggest you contact the Lienor and provide them with copies of the docuementation showing the contract scope of work, the value, the contractors corresponding invoices, and cancelled checks showing payment in full for the work. The Lienor may not remove the Lien, but if they attempt to foreclose same, you will have sufficient documentation to put up a dang good fight against the lien.
If any one wants to get clarification on this, please contact me. I pride myself on being an honest and fair Contractor and making sure my Clients have correct and complete information is critical to my success in that endeavor.
David A. Purvis
(251) 656-2352
Seems to me that if there isn't any contracts or signatures between the homeowner and the supplier, that there shouldn't be any legal recourse by the supplier against the homeowner. I think that is the way it works with every other sort of business that I have been involved with over the years.
"Oral" contracts are indeed binding. Most areas require a notice of commencement on projects over $2500.
In Florida, the supplier is indeed protected if material is ordered for, bought, or delivered to a particular jobsite, regardless of what any contract with the contractor says. A homesteaded home cannot have a lien foreclosed on it.
In Florida, it gets down to LICENSING. A state CERTIFIED contractor must answer to the state CILB. A REGISTERED contractor has a local jurisdiction license. An UNLICENSED contractor probably has no insurance, and cannot execute a contract. You do NOT have to pay an unlicensed contractor for his work, but you must still pay the supplier! An unlicensed contractor cannot sue you because an illegal contract is unenforceable.
If you deal with an unlicensed contractor to save money, you deserve whatever befalls you.........
Seems to me that if there isn't any contracts or signatures between the homeowner and the supplier, that there shouldn't be any legal recourse by the supplier against the homeowner. I think that is the way it works with every other sort of business that I have been involved with over the years.
Not true. The lein is between the supplier and the person with the material or end user. The middle man in this case (the crook lift installer) gets off scott free unless he gets sued.
If you build a home and pay the builder but the builder didnt pay the lumber yard for the materials...........see how fast it takes the lumber yard to put a lein on your home even though you are not in contract with them. Like i said earlier you are responsible for who you hire!!
__________________
2006 Skeeter ZX24 Bay
2006 Yamaha 300 HPDI
2008 Ford F-150 FX4 5.4
Team: FINE DINING --~ <)))))<
There is NO reason to pay "up front" money to any contractor. Any reputable contractor has lines of credit with his suppliers, and adequate liquidity to cover payrolls and incidentals.
Pay ONLY for the portion of work that has been properly completed. Beware of "front-loaded" draws- where more is being billed than the actual value of the completed work. If you don't have the expertise to determine this, seek competent assistance. Once a "fly-by-night" contractor has been overpaid, he has no incentive to return. Be sure that there is always more work completed than has been paid for- and you're much more secure in the likelihood that the work will be completed.
There is NO reason to pay "up front" money to any contractor. Any reputable contractor has lines of credit with his suppliers, and adequate liquidity to cover payrolls and incidentals.
Pay ONLY for the portion of work that has been properly completed. Beware of "front-loaded" draws- where more is being billed than the actual value of the completed work. If you don't have the expertise to determine this, seek competent assistance. Once a "fly-by-night" contractor has been overpaid, he has no incentive to return. Be sure that there is always more work completed than has been paid for- and you're much more secure in the likelihood that the work will be completed.
Maybe when building a house or building that might apply but we are talking about a back yard install. If this philosophy is true you can kiss any custom/special orders good bye. No contractor in their right mind will take a special order without a deposit from the customer. There is no such thing as a line of credit on special orders as they are not returnable. Yea you might get 30 days to pay if you are in good standings but they will not take the material back or take the money off of your bill.
__________________
2006 Skeeter ZX24 Bay
2006 Yamaha 300 HPDI
2008 Ford F-150 FX4 5.4
Team: FINE DINING --~ <)))))<
Pasta, that's the reason you have contracts. When wearing my contractor hat, I seldom get money up front. When wearing my Kitchen cabinet hat, we fully disclose that the cabinets are custom made, and the client pays for THAT portion of the contract.
If you're dealing with unlicensed painters who "need" money up front for paint and drugs, then you're creating a problem. I will admit that occasionally I'll request a small payment up front..5-10%..if the customer is squirrely. This commits THEM to the project. You find out right away if they intend to back out.
Pasta, that's the reason you have contracts. When wearing my contractor hat, I seldom get money up front. When wearing my Kitchen cabinet hat, we fully disclose that the cabinets are custom made, and the client pays for THAT portion of the contract.
If you're dealing with unlicensed painters who "need" money up front for paint and drugs, then you're creating a problem. I will admit that occasionally I'll request a small payment up front..5-10%..if the customer is squirrely. This commits THEM to the project. You find out right away if they intend to back out.
People should not hire an unlicensed painter or contractor period.
We dont do anything without a signed contract. For special orders we require 50% and for stock orders 25%. No exceptions unless its a regualr customer that we know thats in good standing or a large developer like Toll bro's ect. You are right about commiting them to the job and thats exactly why we do it. Its cost money even for the stock jobs to have our gusy load up their truck and drive to the customer house to find out they have changed their mind. That doesnt happen with a 25% non refundable deposit.
__________________
2006 Skeeter ZX24 Bay
2006 Yamaha 300 HPDI
2008 Ford F-150 FX4 5.4
Team: FINE DINING --~ <)))))<
