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Random Quote: If you can go home and pull a $100 bill out , and flush it down the toilet, and if that doesn't bother you, then go ahead and buy a boat truthful words spoken by my outboard mechanic!!!!!!
The supplier has to have an address to which the material was delivered/shipped. Just selling material to a contractor isn't adequate documentation. However, I CAN see the supplier applying funds to the oldest account..the funds didn't come from the owner to be applied to HIS project, but from the contractor, who had the account in the contractors name.
The owner was NOT in privity with the supplier, and had no say in how payments were applied.
Again, if he dealt with a STATE CERTIFIED contractor, he may have recourse from the recovery fund. Eventually........
Continued further. If the supplier had filed a notice to owner, it was the OWNERS responsibility to obtain a LIEN Release from the supplier before he paid the contractor for the materials included in that draw.
He obviously didn't follow the procedure. Sorry.
Again, this is personal opinion, and is NOT LEGAL ADVICE!
Continued further. If the supplier had filed a notice to owner, it was the OWNERS responsibility to obtain a LIEN Release from the supplier before he paid the contractor for the materials included in that draw.
He obviously didn't follow the procedure. Sorry.
Again, this is personal opinion, and is NOT LEGAL ADVICE!
Bill, I completely agree. The problem was that he, like myslef, moved here from states where it doesnt work this way. When this happened and he told me what was going on it sounded absurd. I had no idea that this could happen. Ignorance got him in trouble as he had no idea either.
I had a issue where I had a concrete contractor who was working up the road give me a bid on a job. About a month later I received a Notice to Owner for materials delivered to my house I called the supplier and informed them there was no material delivered to my house and we went round and round. Problem was I was getting ready to pour for my job so I waited until it straightened out becasue I didnt want any confusion about who's concrete my boat was sitting on and if it had been paid for.
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I don't know why folks have issue with naming someone IF the story is TRUE. IF the story is true THEN there can be no legitimate/successful lawsuit. I am NOT stating/insinuating the OP's story is not true. You can be sued for almost anything but to prove damage is the difficult part. If it's the truth there is not going to be a successful lawsuit. Furthermore, any attorney worth anything will advise a client that a lawsuit for slander/libel is a pretty much a joke if you intend to collect on such a lawsuit. Naming the guy/company in this situation might save someone else a headache. For the guy/company to sue you for naming them, he/she would have to prove damages as a direct result of your FALSE/UNTRUE disclosure. If the story is true they can go pound sand. If the story is not true the party will have to demonstrate that they have lost business as a direct result of your slander(spoken)/libel (written). Saying my business is off from what it did last year is NOT stating damage. You would need to bring someone into court stating that they did not do business with you because Mr. ABC said @#$%^& about you. Stating you are damaged is the easy part, proving it is often quite a task.
Good luck with your situation. I would consider clusterhumping this situation for the contractor and file criminal charges for theft by deception. It can be argued the contractor took money from you and had no intention of paying the supplier.
I find the law to be severely retarded in this area. You were represented X. You paid for X. Now you have to defend yourself (remove a lien from your property) because the law says it is your responsibility to keep track of Y and you did not know Y was involved and to no fault of your own. I know it reads to be obnoxious but if this company does not have any money you might be better off taking the offensive route and threaten them with non-civil ramifications especially if you can get your local PD/prosecutor on your side.
I'm confused. How would the op have any idea that the lift was not 100% paid for by the installer? If I were dealing with a reputable (or even unreputable) dock builder, I would assume unless very very clearly notified before work started, that the installer "owned" the materials and I was buying them from him. If the installer didn't pay for the lift I don't see how it is this guys problem unless someone produces a signed document from him that he knew this was the practice?
Now if the installer had some agreement with the manufacturer, and didn't notify the op.. Then I'd love to know how the op is on the hook...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Demeanor
Flot, I will give you an even more screwed up scenario. My neighbor who got screwed had paid his contractor in full. His contractor had been making payments to the supplier for all the jobs he was working. The question became, how did the supplier determine what jobs materials were paid for and what were not when payment had been made by the contractor?
The supplier took the money they had been paid by the contractor and applied it to the oldest bill, then next oldest, then next oldest until all the money was applied to jobs. Whoever was left over at the end got liened. There was no way to tell where the money that got applied to those older outstanding bills came from. Unfortunately for my buddy, his material was delivered late in the month. But it gets even better! He did some research and it appears that some of the customers who had outstanding bills older than his had not paid. Even though they had not paid, his money was applied to their accounts because of how the delivery dates fell. He got liened and they paid nothing when the contractor went under.
He went to 10 attorneys, they all said he was SOL. He went to court and fought it himself. He is a cop with a little court experience and figured he had nothing to lose. The suppliers attorney killed him with attorneys fees to the tune of about $10k when he lost.
It's Florida - it does not have to make sense. Not being sarcastic, but it is the truth. Lot's of strange things happen here - and some of them defy logic.
The fact of the matter is - that for the consumer, unless you have previously been , or know someone that has been burned, you would not even think about this until it happens. There are really only a few ways to safeguard against it (in my opinion) and some of them are probably will not be agreeable to the contractor. The example from Mr. Demeanor is true - unless each job is considered a separate account between the contractor and the supplier - it can be incredibly confusing and/or difficult to determine if the material have been paid for.
Back to the OP's scenario. it sounds like the job was complete and he had already paid the contractor when he received the Notice to Owner, and that it was within the 30 days and therefore enforceable. At that time, since the OP had already paid for the job, he has no leverage at all. One way around it, and I do not think that a contractor will go for it, is for money to be held back (or placed in escrow) for 30 days from the completion of the job. As stated, I doubt that the contractor would go for it, but as scenarios such as this are getting more and more popular down here, it may be the "wave of the future" and become the standard way that things are handled - though it does nothing to help the OP right now.
Another possibility would be a surety bond (or whatever the proper name for this type of bond is) Again - it may be disagreeable to the contractor, but it may become standard for matters such as these - and it may also add more cost to the consumer. Personally though, if I were paying big $$ for something like a bulkhead replacement and lift install, I would not mind paying a few (I really have no idea of what they cost) $$ to safeguard this from happening.
I think think this thread is a real eye-opener for a lot of people (myself included) who would never have envisioned this being a problem. The average person would think that the job was completed and they paid for it - end of story.
Profinity, I agree with what you say about the likelihood of a libel/slander suit being successful being slim to none - especially if the story is completely true. However, I do not agree with airing it names publicly as it may make the situation harder to resolve. It is an escalation that, once started, can not be undone, and I would not do it until virtually all hope of an amicable solution is gone.
Jesus. One more reason to hire the cheapest labor and drive them to home depot to pay for materials.
In all seriousness, most of the small jobs i've done, I've either supplied or paid for materials seperately. Had no idea this sort of situation could arise post-delivery. Appreciate the heads up, sounds like a screwed up situation, in this particular case I think I'd give the builder a few days to get things straight and after that anything goes.
Rinker used to send notices to owners automatically every time a notice of commencement was filed. All the notice says is that IF they supply material they will enforce their lien rights.
This is also the reason banks will wait 90 days to fund projects that already have work in place..it gives time for liens to show up.
I'll admit it's a screwy deal. but once you understand the whole process it becomes clearer...not better, just clearer.
Watch naming the guy, you might get involved in a slander suit. Tread lightly, till you get some ammo.
Slander lol As long as he tells the truth.
Its plain and simple. I own a business that plasters swimming pools and I have leaned over 100 properties for the same reason. You should have never paid the contractor without a release of lien from all vendors. That means all draws get a progression type of release till the final release.Everyone in Florida should do this because you will pay twice if you don't protect yourself. Sub-contractors, sub sub contractors, material suppliers, laborers, and the man contractor have lien rights. The Contractor is privy with you so notice of owner is not required from them but everyone else has to serve you one by certified mail,or legal sender. Regular mail service is not valid. On another note. The lien is only valid for one year period. If you contest the lien then you will shorten the lien to 60 days. I would not pay an attorney at all with this.The only one stuck here is the lift supplier. He has no intention to actually file the lean in court because its costly and I bet the amount of the bill owed to him is not worth it to him. 99 % of the time the supplier has no idea what a contest is and does nothing about it and looses the lien rights.
Sorry to hear about your problems. Unfortunately, it has become an all to common occurrence in the current FL housing market. Of the few surviving contractors/subs many are on the verge of bankruptcy and not paying their bills. Consumer beware!
Here's some good info on construction lien law in FL and the Release of Lien.
Billinstuart,
I beg to differ with you on the reference you made about contractors don't own the materials. I pay for all of my materials up front and have never sent an nto. I figure if I do what I said I was going to do , then I should not have a problem getting paid for the services I rendered
In CT if you have paid the contractor in full, you have a defense against the supplier.
They have the right to lien you, but you would prevail up here.
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This is common in the trades. Equipment companies keep track of where equipment goes addresses etc., hours on the job etc. If they are not paid by the contractor renting/leasing it they can and will lien the property-they know it is probably the only way they will get reimbursed.
The same thing applies to building materials..etc.
Unfortunately getting a lien removed can be a hurdle- going to court or paying it are the two options available
MS66- It reads to me the OP is getting the runaround by the contractor. This equates to being a liar which means poor character. I have no sympathy for someone who is not honest and lies. As I stated, naming the contractor might help save someone else from a headache that they do not deserve. I agree about exercising restraint just because there exists a disagreement. However in this situation it reads like the OP has attempted to amicably rectify the situation and the contractor is a liar and is running away from responsibility. Therefore, SCREW EM"!
Oceansmasher, if you are in privity with the owner you do not need to send a notice to owner. I'll assume you're properly licensed..if not, the owner has no obligation to pay you for anything.
Most of the FL guys have given you the correct info. Ignore out-of-state info, it is not applicable.
I've been a commercial contractor here for over twenty years, deal with this every day...
As long as the Notice to Owner was filed within forty-five (45) days of the beginning of the job (including delivery of materials), and the lien is filed within ninety (90) days of completion (last day on the jobsite), the lien MAY be valid, provided the notice is appropriately worded and delivered (certified mail, return receipt).
It is also SOP in commercial construction for a 10% retention to be held pending completion and acceptance of the job, but for some reason this is never done in residential construction.
Consult an attorney, but it sounds as if your only remedy may be to sue the contractor- but if he has any assets, he probably would have paid his bills...
FORTUNATELY...
The matter has been sorted out.
The contractor has paid the material supplier (via a check/instrument stating that acceptance/cashing this check absolves the parties included (him, and myself,) of any further payment responsibility), who has spoken with his attorney, who is filing the release of lein papers with the county.
I spoke to the attorney to confirm this this morning.
So, my side comes out OK.
HOWEVER...leason learned...I will demand full meterial release on any f urther work ever done, on anything...!!!!!
BTW...the NTO was delivered to me on Sept. 1st, a full week after the contractor completed the job and was paid in full.....I think next time I will hold 25% for 46 days until all accounts are cleared. If the contractor does not like it...well, as has been mentioned...they are all CRYING for work here in Florida...someone else will take the job!
FORTUNATELY...
The matter has been sorted out.
The contractor has paid the material supplier (via a check/instrument stating that acceptance/cashing this check absolves the parties included (him, and myself,) of any further payment responsibility), who has spoken with his attorney, who is filing the release of lein papers with the county.
I spoke to the attorney to confirm this this morning.
So, my side comes out OK.
HOWEVER...leason learned...I will demand full meterial release on any f urther work ever done, on anything...!!!!!
BTW...the NTO was delivered to me on Sept. 1st, a full week after the contractor completed the job and was paid in full.....I think next time I will hold 25% for 46 days until all accounts are cleared. If the contractor does not like it...well, as has been mentioned...they are all CRYING for work here in Florida...someone else will take the job!
That's good news and we have all learned something. Check your state laws when hiring a contractor.
This is the internet folks. The law for libel doesn't work the same way as it did in the days when Mark Twain was a cub reporter for the Missisippi Time Union Newspaper and most folks got 99% of their news from the local newsprint. Libel away!
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I called the supplier and informed them there was no material delivered to my house and we went round and round. Problem was I was getting ready to pour for my job so I waited until it straightened out becasue I didnt want any confusion about who's concrete my boat was sitting on and if it had been paid for. 
