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You keep bringing up NMMA certified. So your saying if not NMMA cert we should not expect the work and service we pay for?
That is your fault for accepting boats that need that much work that yoru not paid for. Send them back. Just like when I buy a car or boat I expect it to be right. You should do the same as the buyer.
I am sorry but you once again you have changed positions, my forgetful friend! And I quote you!
“Time for the builders to rethink their marketing, and distribution. If they were to cut out the 25% dealer mark up and the $3000 freight and prep BS, maybe they'd sell a few more boats.”
Then a few post later, “Nobody forced you into the boat business and if it is so difficult then get the hell out, its still a free country isn't it.”…..“Do you think that the average consumer gives a rats ass about the local car dealership having a tough time……”
I have never once switched sides or deviated from my position. I have identified myself in my first post…”I am/ was…. A new boat dealer, and have been in my own business for 16/17 years, and was a mechanic before that. I started in a 2000 sq foot shop, by myself, and grew it to a three location dealership in two states employing up to twenty one full and part time employees. My dealership was the forty second in the nation to be NMMA certified… witch I found means NOTHING to most of you… and we held an average of 97.5% CSI rating with our customer feedback, according to Monterey, and higher with Everglade’s owners. So, I feel that I can talk with some type of expertise in this field. This kind of naïve and hostile attitude towards dealers is unbelievable.”
I am not defending all dealers and I never put the blame on all customers. Just people like you who promote “screw the dealer they are the scum of the earth that work for the love of money”.
My intensions here are to get you, the customer, to understand that the majority of the problems in this industry are the manufacture. When was the last time anyone went to a new car dealership that did not have a service shop? Yet having a dealership that works off of 5% margins in the shadows of a large marina with no employees other than one or two salesmen is common in this industry.
It is very common for us, the dealer, to pull a new boat off of a truck and put 20 to 40 man hours in it fixing things that should have been done at the factory, only to have them refuse to pay more than 10 hours. Who pays for that? We do! How many of you reading this article care if the dealer is NMMA certified? Do you have any idea of the cost associated with doing that or what that means? I am going to start a new thread asking that question. Let’s see the response.
These basic problems exist in most every business, and that is what is killing this country. Before anyone asks me! NO I will not shop at Wal-Mart! When I bought my last three trucks for my dealership I did not shop 20 different dealerships for the best price. I went to my local Ford dealer with a price in mind that I would be comfortable paying and we did deals. They gave/give me good service and I plan on buying my next trucks off of them.
If you have to spend 20 to 40 hours fixing things on new boats and then don't get paid for it, maybe you ought to stop selling that line of boats.. Alot of the problem is dealers want to sell low grade boats at high cost for max profit.. Don't sell junk, and you won't have to fix it as much.. Dealers choose what they want to sell.. Don't expect any sympathy because you choose to sell an inferior product from an inferior manufacturer..
How would you feel if you took one of those new Fords back with about 300 miles on it because the motor was blown and the service manager told you to call Ford, its not our problem.. Then Ford tells you it's gonna take 3 or 4 months to fix.. Would you be upset?
Don't forget that one little item that hasn't been mentioned in the last several posts; namely the "trade-in" How many builders will take one? Can all of you sell your own boat before you buy another?
Who does the in water testing for the buyer? All I see here is transferring facility, salespeople, who all just "sit around", warranty, service, storage and whatever to the builder--not to mention the finance costs since the builder must cash flow as well. A large manufacturer won't be able to pull this off and a small one won't want to hire the personnel.
It is not just a matter of transferring - you are consolidating and rationalizing. The cost required to do this centrally with a single fleet of boats is infinitely smaller than when you have 100 dealers. While the buyers lose some convenience, only the serious end-stage buyers will take the sellers time. The model is MUCH more efficient financially, especially when you include inventory financing costs.
As for trade-ins you make a good point, but many times the dealers take losses on those trade-ins.
You keep bringing up NMMA certified. So your saying if not NMMA cert we should not expect the work and service we pay for?
That is your fault for accepting boats that need that much work that yoru not paid for. Send them back. Just like when I buy a car or boat I expect it to be right. You should do the same as the buyer.
No... I am not implying that if you are not NMMA certified you will get bad service. NMMA certification was developed to give a guarantee to customers that they would have a good boating experience.
Don't sell junk, and you won't have to fix it as much.. Dealers choose what they want to sell.. Don't expect any sympathy because you choose to sell an inferior product from an inferior manufacturer..
LoL..... Please read the post before and understand who I am and what I sold. We sold some of the highest end boats on the market. I am not asking for sympathy just hoping the manufactures are reading this thread.
I would like to thank everyone who have posted. I know going into this that I would not get anyone to understand my, the dealers, side. There are a lot of bad dealers and there are a lot of good ones. The sad thing is, there are a lot of good dealers that are not going to make it out of this down turn. Hopefully my dealership will make it... we feel we made the right choices and should survive but time will tell. The end of the day most... NOT ALL... customers want price over service. Cheap price and good service does not walk hand and hand.
The costs that will be squeezed out of the system:
1. Financing costs, and the total capital costs of having the boat available at a hundred locations or so
2. Sales force costs - same as above - no more need to pay salesmen to sit around OR collect a commission
3. Facility costs at the dealer - square footage, utilities, other costs of having space required to showroom/sell boats
4. Losses on leftovers that have to be absorbed by sales on fresh stock where the dealer tries to maintain a hard line - looked at another way depreciation on old inventory.
5. Local advertising
6. Dealer's profit.
All of the above represent the average difference between wholesale and retail costs.
Offsetting this is the need to have a central sales force at the dealer, and the need to allocate more support and resources to building the service only fixed or virtual network, which covers your second point about seervice quality. 20-25% over cost is plenty to cover these incremental expenses.
Sounds good on paper. Open that oyster.
I've had this conversation with you before. You can certainly talk rings around me when it comes to financials and whatnot. You seem to think that it would be a snap to make big money in the boating industry as a builder or dealer if you just finetune the operation. You may very well be right with all your concepts. But until you put them into action they are just concepts.
Disclaimer: If you see emoticons, that means the above is written in jest. It is for entertainment purposes only. It is not meant to represent any actual persons, places, or things. It is the opinion of the poster that it is funny. Your opinion may vary. No animals were harmed in the typing of this post but a few egos may have been bruised.
Prove you're right, open a builder/dealer shop. Get your customers to travel to a central location. Put up your service centers. Consolidate your costs per your model. If it works you'll be rolling in money. If.
You've said before that barriers to entry are too high. I'm sure that with today's climate you could pick up a boat mfg for a song, so the barrier thing is not nearly as high as you may think. Anyway, does it really matter how high the initial investment is if the profits are good? If you make 25% on your investment, then you shouldn't be concerned about the principle, whether it's $1000 or $1,000,000, right? Or, maybe the ROI isn't so great and the risk is too high? Maybe it's easier and a lot more lucrative to be an accountant or a M & A guy. Or a bread baker. Or a silicon chip maker.
It's not easy to turn a consistent profit year after year in this business. Maybe that's the fault of the people in the business, I don't know. There is one thing I do know - you'll never turn a profit in this business if your not in it. Open that oyster.
Disclaimer: If you see emoticons, that means the above is written in jest. It is for entertainment purposes only. It is not meant to represent any actual persons, places, or things. It is the opinion of the poster that it is funny. Your opinion may vary. No animals were harmed in the typing of this post but a few egos may have been bruised.
At least he has the choice to go to enougher dealer of the same brand? Isnt the oarker plan a anti trust price and dealer protection plan? Competition will eventually fix things if we change? no change no future existence
I always felt that Parkers "dealership agreements" were illegal, how can you deny a customer if they walk in and want to buy a boat? How can they legally obstruct your opportunity to buy from any Parker dealer that you want to.
I am sorry but you once again you have changed positions, my forgetful friend! And I quote you!
“Time for the builders to rethink their marketing, and distribution. If they were to cut out the 25% dealer mark up and the $3000 freight and prep BS, maybe they'd sell a few more boats.”
Then a few post later, “Nobody forced you into the boat business and if it is so difficult then get the hell out, its still a free country isn't it.”…..“Do you think that the average consumer gives a rats ass about the local car dealership having a tough time……”
I have never once switched sides or deviated from my position. I have identified myself in my first post…”I am/ was…. A new boat dealer, and have been in my own business for 16/17 years, and was a mechanic before that. I started in a 2000 sq foot shop, by myself, and grew it to a three location dealership in two states employing up to twenty one full and part time employees. My dealership was the forty second in the nation to be NMMA certified… witch I found means NOTHING to most of you… and we held an average of 97.5% CSI rating with our customer feedback, according to Monterey, and higher with Everglade’s owners. So, I feel that I can talk with some type of expertise in this field. This kind of naïve and hostile attitude towards dealers is unbelievable.”
I am not defending all dealers and I never put the blame on all customers. Just people like you who promote “screw the dealer they are the scum of the earth that work for the love of money”.
My intensions here are to get you, the customer, to understand that the majority of the problems in this industry are the manufacture. When was the last time anyone went to a new car dealership that did not have a service shop? Yet having a dealership that works off of 5% margins in the shadows of a large marina with no employees other than one or two salesmen is common in this industry.
It is very common for us, the dealer, to pull a new boat off of a truck and put 20 to 40 man hours in it fixing things that should have been done at the factory, only to have them refuse to pay more than 10 hours. Who pays for that? We do! How many of you reading this article care if the dealer is NMMA certified? Do you have any idea of the cost associated with doing that or what that means? I am going to start a new thread asking that question. Let’s see the response.
These basic problems exist in most every business, and that is what is killing this country. Before anyone asks me! NO I will not shop at Wal-Mart! When I bought my last three trucks for my dealership I did not shop 20 different dealerships for the best price. I went to my local Ford dealer with a price in mind that I would be comfortable paying and we did deals. They gave/give me good service and I plan on buying my next trucks off of them.
I don't see how I changed positions, consumers do not care if you are having a hard time keeping the doors open just as they don't care if the Ford dealer down the street is barely making ends meet. We as consumers are not to be held responsible for the success or failure of any business unless it is our own. Once again the boat dealer blames the consumer for the dealers poor management and failing business model .
If you continuously have to put 40 hours into a new boat from the factory and they refuse to reimburse more than 10 hours, how is that the customers problem? shame on you the dealer for buying the same boats and trying to make them presentable. Exactly way does the dealer NMMA certification mean to a boat buyer? Shouldn't the buyer be more concerned if the builder is NMMA certified, all your doing is prepping the boat not building or designing it. PA you still refuse to answer the question, How many new "stock" boats are you carrying in inventory? if the overhead is such a problem when carrying inventory, what happens now that you are not carrying inventory? Where am I promoting "screw the dealer", I am promoting getting full value when you pay for something and most dealers have a real problem with customers that ask the tough questions.......extinction is just around the corner
The free market giveth, and the free market taketh away...........
What everyone says here matters little. If there aren't enough customers to sustain a dealership, it doesn't matter what benefit they are to the boating community. Buh-bye.
If the dealers aren't moving boats, the builders will have to do it themselves.
Nobody said you have to buy a production built boat anyway. Virtually all of the downeast boats like mine are custom built and finished without a dealer anywhere in sight.
People buy boats from them anyway, and guess what? They stand behind their boats and provide excellent customer care, even when the boats travel long distances away. The original owner of my boat was able to get a whole new engine installed because the exhaust design was bad. They not only replaced the engine, they redesigned the exhaust.
Again, no boat dealer involved. Just a reputable builder and engine sales team.
Yeah, it sucks to be a dealer in this economy. It sucks to be a lot of things these days. Nobody is stopping engineering, manufacturing, finance, marketing, or virtually any other profession from being sourced from India or Mexico. Join the club.
__________________
Terry Jason 35, Yanmar 370 hp, Lots of fun at a leisurely pace
The free market giveth, and the free market taketh away...........
What everyone says here matters little. If there aren't enough customers to sustain a dealership, it doesn't matter what benefit they are to the boating community. Buh-bye.
If the dealers aren't moving boats, the builders will have to do it themselves.
Nobody said you have to buy a production built boat anyway. Virtually all of the downeast boats like mine are custom built and finished without a dealer anywhere in sight.
People buy boats from them anyway, and guess what? They stand behind their boats and provide excellent customer care, even when the boats travel long distances away. The original owner of my boat was able to get a whole new engine installed because the exhaust design was bad. They not only replaced the engine, they redesigned the exhaust.
Again, no boat dealer involved. Just a reputable builder and engine sales team.
Yeah, it sucks to be a dealer in this economy. It sucks to be a lot of things these days. Nobody is stopping engineering, manufacturing, finance, marketing, or virtually any other profession from being sourced from India or Mexico.
Surprising how the Downeast builders continue in this day and age without an NMMA certified dealer to check the builders work!!! I can't understand how they could ever sell a boat without a dealer adding a 25% margin.........Next boat will be a downeast, custom built, no dealer needed. Of course most dealers will be extinct by the time I order another boat ,but they will be NMMA certified
It is not just a matter of transferring - you are consolidating and rationalizing. The cost required to do this centrally with a single fleet of boats is infinitely smaller than when you have 100 dealers. While the buyers lose some convenience, only the serious end-stage buyers will take the sellers time. The model is MUCH more efficient financially, especially when you include inventory financing costs.
As for trade-ins you make a good point, but many times the dealers take losses on those trade-ins.
Sorry Joe, it just doesn't add up despite your best efforts. If it did, then GM would be selling direct right now. They're not. Less boat dealers? Sure, that is happening right now and the strong ones will survive as always. I know of no dealer in our area losing money on used boats---heck that's what is selling best right now!
Surprising how the Downeast builders continue in this day and age without an NMMA certified dealer to check the builders work!!! I can't understand how they could ever sell a boat without a dealer adding a 25% margin.........Next boat will be a downeast, custom built, no dealer needed. Of course most dealers will be extinct by the time I order another boat ,but they will be NMMA certified
If the builders you point out were able to satisfy demand, you might make some sense. They can't and never could. I say again, if this was a good business plan then all dealers; including motorcycles, campers, cars, and farm implements would go away. They haven't and they won't. Selling is selling and building is building--unless you prefer a socialist state which seems where we are heading with the gov't controlling businesses.
If you don't like a dealer, don't deal with him and eventually he'll fail if everyone thinks of him as you do.
And to make a margin is what businesses do, or, once again, they fail--simple.
I would like to thank everyone who have posted. I know going into this that I would not get anyone to understand my, the dealers, side. There are a lot of bad dealers and there are a lot of good ones. The sad thing is, there are a lot of good dealers that are not going to make it out of this down turn. Hopefully my dealership will make it... we feel we made the right choices and should survive but time will tell. The end of the day most... NOT ALL... customers want price over service. Cheap price and good service does not walk hand and hand.
I feel honored that we have received you last post, than you so much for enlightening us with you NMMA certified input, still have not answered the question, how many stock boats are you carrying on floor plan? ............
If the builders you point out were able to satisfy demand, you might make some sense. They can't and never could. I say again, if this was a good business plan then all dealers; including motorcycles, campers, cars, and farm implements would go away. They haven't and they won't. Selling is selling and building is building--unless you prefer a socialist state which seems where we are heading with the gov't controlling businesses.
If you don't like a dealer, don't deal with him and eventually he'll fail if everyone thinks of him as you do.
And to make a margin is what businesses do, or, once again, they fail--simple.
Unfortunately if you were looking at a Parker for example, you have one option for dealer. The one that Parker tells you is "your" dealer, like them or not they are the dealer that you "must" use...........
LoL..... Please read the post before and understand who I am and what I sold. We sold some of the highest end boats on the market. I am not asking for sympathy just hoping the manufactures are reading this thread.
Unfortunately if you were looking at a Parker for example, you have one option for dealer. The one that Parker tells you is "your" dealer, like them or not they are the dealer that you "must" use...........
Parker is simply trying to protect the buyer and the dealer and to keep them local to maximize ease of service and sales. They back their product well and have been around for a long time. Any company can have any rules they wish; at least that is true in our industry.
Dealers have been trying for years to get written dealer agreements that weren't one-way streets in favor of the builders to no avail. We can be cancelled at any time for any reason within most agreements; that's just the way it has always been.
And by the way, Parker dealers can sell out of their territories if they wish; but they do have to pay the local dealer part of the sale. This is true of current model year product only--leftovers are fair game, and that is also true with most builders who have territorial rules.
I've had this conversation with you before. You can certainly talk rings around me when it comes to financials and whatnot. You seem to think that it would be a snap to make big money in the boating industry as a builder or dealer if you just finetune the operation. You may very well be right with all your concepts. But until you put them into action they are just concepts.
continued on next post....
I don't think that it is at all easy to make money in this industry, especially selling boats, and that was even before the current shift in the industry. In fact that is precisely why I think the retail model has to change.
I don't think it is even necessary to look at the financial details, that I would normally, to see that something has to give between boat prices and consumer affordability. This is not an indictment of dealers (at least not on this score), but rather an observation that the economics in this market have changed permanently for all the reasons I cited in my first post.
Either prices come down, or the industry shrinks an order of magnitude from where it is now, permanently. That IS simple economics.
The only place where there is significant room in the cost of a new boat purchase is in the dealer margin.
There will be gives and takes, and service may even get worse at least in the short term until the players sort themselves out. But something has to change.
I don't see this as a great chance to take advantage of a new opportunity. I just see it as a necessary shift, where everybody in the chain gives up something, including the customer, in order to close a structural gap.
LoL..... Please read the post before and understand who I am and what I sold. We sold some of the highest end boats on the market. I am not asking for sympathy just hoping the manufactures are reading this thread.
Let me get this straight, you claim to have "sold" (past tense) some of the "highest end" boats in the market and it took you up to 40 hours to make them ready for delivery. The manufacturer would only reimburse you for 10 hours work yet you continued to represent this boat line? Can you please explain why? if you were losing 30 man hours on each boat prepped , did you charge the customer for prep ? If the customer did pay for prep why would you be looking to be reimbursed by the builder at all?.........
