*THE HULL TRUTH is the world's largest FREE network for the discussion of Boating & Fishing. Whether you're researching a new boat, or are a seasoned Captain, you'll find The Hull Truth Boating & Fishing Message Forum contains a wealth of information from Boaters and Sportfishermen around the world.
Welcome to the updated THT!
If you are having trouble signing in, please email feedback@thehulltruth.com with your username and we will help you. We thank you for your patience as we help you access the new site!
Comparing apples to apples? I thought I was comparing how two Grady White dealers within 40 miles of each other. Two similar dealers having business models that are diametrically opposed are about as good of an example as I can provide. The first dealer couldn't care less after the sale, the second dealer doing everything within reason to make the customer happy ,including sending the salesman by with a trailer to take the boat in for break in service at no charge......apples to apples there is no comparison between the two dealers
Just had a chance to sit down at my computer. I need to understand what side of the fence are you on. When you started this post you were saying how dealers should sell cheaper and they would sell more boats. Now, you are IMPLYING you payed a premium to go to the smaller dealer who is a mom and pop shop that does good service. I fully agree "with your current view" that there are high volume dealers who care more about the sale than the service and that has to change. That is not what you said earlier in this thread. So the root of your entire story is that you bought a boat off of a large high volume dealer.... everyone will assume it was because of price.... and you got bad service. Now I will assume you are using your current dealer, the one you are happy with, for all your boating needs and have realized that the cheaper price does not always work.... Quick question... why are you asking in another post on this site how cheep you can get a motor? Planning on using that as leverage to beet up your "good service dealer"????? Hummmm..... you want WalMart prices with Porsche service.... What do you do for a living?
You guys enjoy this argument while you can. By this time next year there will be very few boat dealers left in business and many more mfg's will have gone under. We are just beginning the economic decent that is coming. Things are going to get much worse for all of us. We have a president who has a quick fix for everything. Like a crack addict who pawns everything they own this week and has nothing left to pawn next week. There is a very real possibility that this country will never again be what it was. Everyone assumes the problems were seeing are temporary and that the economy will come roaring back at some point. That isn't at all guaranteed and in fact very unlikely if you believe some of the smartest fiancial minds in the world. The truth is the country started going bankrupt because of 9/11 and has never really recovered.......
You guys enjoy this argument while you can. By this time next year there will be very few boat dealers left in business and many more mfg's will have gone under. We are just beginning the economic decent that is coming. Things are going to get much worse for all of us. We have a president who has a quick fix for everything. Like a crack addict who pawns everything they own this week and has nothing left to pawn next week. There is a very real possibility that this country will never again be what it was. Everyone assumes the problems were seeing are temporary and that the economy will come roaring back at some point. That isn't at all guaranteed and in fact very unlikely if you believe some of the smartest fiancial minds in the world. The truth is the country started going bankrupt because of 9/11 and has never really recovered.......
You are 100% right, and this is kind of my point. Guys like NL want everything cheaper, but they don't want to pay for it. Service cost money, keeping employees employed, cost money! This country is going to hell in a hand bag because there is a large percentage of people out there that do not understand that. I think it is obvious that NL "wanted change" last November... how is that working out now. The car industry keep selling cars cheaper... 0% down 0% interest.... now the goverment/TAX payer owes half of GM. Someone else in history started a goverment car co.... anyone? Give you a hint "The people's car".... 1945?????
Just had a chance to sit down at my computer. I need to understand what side of the fence are you on. When you started this post you were saying how dealers should sell cheaper and they would sell more boats. Now, you are IMPLYING you payed a premium to go to the smaller dealer who is a mom and pop shop that does good service. I fully agree "with your current view" that there are high volume dealers who care more about the sale than the service and that has to change. That is not what you said earlier in this thread. So the root of your entire story is that you bought a boat off of a large high volume dealer.... everyone will assume it was because of price.... and you got bad service. Now I will assume you are using your current dealer, the one you are happy with, for all your boating needs and have realized that the cheaper price does not always work.... Quick question... why are you asking in another post on this site how cheep you can get a motor? Planning on using that as leverage to beet up your "good service dealer"????? Hummmm..... you want WalMart prices with Porsche service.... What do you do for a living?
I am not trying to beat up a dealer to get a deal on an OB, I was simply asking what is the margin like on an outboard, how much room is there to work with? This is where the consumer is at a huge disadvantage, not having access to actual invoice pricing. I am considering a restoration project and was trying to get an idea of what my cost would be to rig the boat with new power.
And no I did not buy my first Grady from a larger high volume dealer for price, they were my local dealer and I never said that they were cheaper. What I said was after paying 3K for freight and prep the boat should have at least shifted in and out of gear or am I wrong on that? Should I have just paid the 3k and not bitched when things did not work properly? Of course not. I paid for something and it was not properly prepped and the dealer didn't seem to care , Grady White stepped in and corrected the problems which is why I went on to purchase two more Gradys (different dealer of course).
Pa Boat Dr, can i ask what line of boats and engines do you carry? Have you carried these brands long term? What can you do a better job at ? I am truly interested in the dealers perspective and how a boat dealership is managed ?
If this country fails it will be due to our pitiful education system, corruption, greed, and our immigration laws. Capitalism doesn't work if the people at the top of the financial food chain become so greedy that they resort to stealing while already making billions. Capitalism can only work if the most successful among us are willing to share the wealth and create businesses to employ the masses. Instead they have been caught trying to steal billions from the masses retirement funds. Education is the other big downfall of this country. We have millions of children graduating high school who can barely read or write! Millions more don't graduate. They are too busy reproducing. This country is quickly seeing the end of the middle class. We are headed for the very poor and the very rich. As for me, I am moving next year to another area of the world. Having lived everyday of my life in Texas, I can no longer communicate with most of the people around me, nor can I read most of the signs in the grocery stores. If I am going to be forced to speak a language other than English, I should at least have the privilige of traveling to another country! We have allot bigger problems than our boating industry going under, that is just the tip of the iceberg!!!
How hard is it to sell socialism to a millions of unemployed, hungry Americans?
You are 100% right, and this is kind of my point. Guys like NL want everything cheaper, but they don't want to pay for it. Service cost money, keeping employees employed, cost money! This country is going to hell in a hand bag because there is a large percentage of people out there that do not understand that. I think it is obvious that NL "wanted change" last November... how is that working out now. The car industry keep selling cars cheaper... 0% down 0% interest.... now the goverment/TAX payer owes half of GM. Someone else in history started a goverment car co.... anyone? Give you a hint "The people's car".... 1945?????
Hey PA, I didn't vote for the empty suit that we call Obama so don't even go there my friend. The only thing that I expect from anyone that I am paying is to get my moneys worth, and apparently you have a hard time with that. Anyone that actually expects to receive full value for which they paid is a problem for you. Its always the customers fault, they want this or that, they're just so damn unreasonable. You are correct stating that service costs money, yet not providing "excellent" service is far more expensive. Blame the customers all you want, I won't be the one going belly up because someone didn't treat the customers as they should have......
This thread, as many others on the same topic, is sorta all over the place. There are valid points on both sides of the dealer-customer argument.
One thing that seems to get glossed over or left out entirely when some espouse this new dealerless boat sales agenda is the cost of those sales. Whether through a dealer or by the mfg directly, sales come at a cost. Sales commissions, brochures, demo rides, boat shows, etc, etc, etc will still be around and still have to be paid for by someone. Currently, dealers, for the most part, handle those items and pay the cost out of their revenue. If the shift is to a direct sales approach then the mfg will pay those expenses. The expenses are still there, the burden of payment just shifts.
So what is left as a "savings" to the consumer? The dealer's profit? Since the dealer's profit is not anywhere near what most of you think it is, there won't be a huge savings to be realized. But any savings is a good deal for the consumer, right? Well, wait just a second. Who's going to handle those warranty claims that are bound to pop up. The mfg will just hire out the work to an independent operation you say. The independent service guy, in all likelihood, won't offer as favorable a rate as the previous dealer did. Warranty cost goes up, less savings for the consumer.
And what of the quality of the warranty work. How will the mfg hold the independent guy's feet to the fire? Maybe the independent will do a good job, maybe not. If the mfg's have a hard time with their dealers providing quality service, imagine what could happen with an independent guy.
Someone wrote that the mfg's could provide demo boats to dealers so the dealers don't have the floorplan burden. Man, what dealer wouldn't want someone would give them a boat to "demo". If the sales aren't there, oh well, at least it didn't cost anything. But it does cost someone. The mfg has to build the boat and put it at that dealers lot. Again, just shifting the expense from one entity to another. Eating up that savings again.
Should the mfg be remunerated for all the additional work he's doing as a factory direct sales organization. I'm afraid the answer from some of you would be an adamant no. Somehow, I don't think too many of you guys would be willing to take on a bunch of extra work for no additional pay.
I'd like to remind everyone there's no free lunch. You can't get everything for nothing. The direct approach certainly can work, especially for the niche players. But those direct sales don't come at no cost to you, they are built in. There could be some savings, I just think too many believe it will cut the cost of a new boat by a very large percentage. I also don't think direct sales will work for a company that produces several hundred to several thousand boats a year.
Could dealers and mfgs be more efficient? Better businessmen? I'm sure there are many areas for improvement in the marine industry just as there is in any business. If you've got a surefire, newfangled way to run the boat business, the world is your oyster. Come on, pluck the pearls.
Disclaimer: If you see emoticons, that means the above is written in jest. It is for entertainment purposes only. It is not meant to represent any actual persons, places, or things. It is the opinion of the poster that it is funny. Your opinion may vary. No animals were harmed in the typing of this post but a few egos may have been bruised.
If this country fails it will be due to our pitiful education system, corruption, greed, and our immigration laws. Capitalism doesn't work if the people at the top of the financial food chain become so greedy that they resort to stealing while already making billions. Capitalism can only work if the most successful among us are willing to share the wealth and create businesses to employ the masses. Instead they have been caught trying to steal billions from the masses retirement funds. Education is the other big downfall of this country. We have millions of children graduating high school who can barely read or write! Millions more don't graduate. They are too busy reproducing. This country is quickly seeing the end of the middle class. We are headed for the very poor and the very rich. As for me, I am moving next year to another area of the world. Having lived everyday of my life in Texas, I can no longer communicate with most of the people around me, nor can I read most of the signs in the grocery stores. If I am going to be forced to speak a language other than English, I should at least have the privilige of traveling to another country! We have allot bigger problems than our boating industry going under, that is just the tip of the iceberg!!!
How hard is it to sell socialism to a millions of unemployed, hungry Americans?
Food for thought
According to IRS statistics released July 30, 2009, if you reported an Adjusted Gross Income (AGI) on your 2007 federal income tax return of more than $66,532, your household income is in the top 25% of all American households. If the number was above $113,018, you made the top 10%.
Those whose AGIs are part of the top 10% cumulatively earn 48% of all income in the United States. For the top 25%, their incomes represent 69% of all AGI. Collectively, those at the top of the AGI scale have a proportionately higher percentage of financial resources.
Even though it’s possible that some with high AGIs may not pay income taxes (because of other factors like a large number of dependents, high deductible expenses and/or tax credits), those in the top 25% of AGI in the United States paid more than 86% of all the income taxes collected in 2007, with the top 10% accounting for 71% of all income taxes paid.
So who actually buys new boats. Why would you when there are so many great deals on used boats? That has got to be hurting new boat dealers as well.
I'm also worried that the marina where my boat is stacked won't make it. Few people are using their boats. Which means they're not selling service, fuel or related items.
I can only imagine the Boat Shows are going to be dismal this winter
"Change" is here for sure and its not looking so good
hblac, I will likely buy new. There are new '07, '08 and '09 boats all over with stupid rebates and incentives. For instance, I can't find a used Scout Sportfish 222, Dorado 222, or Dorado 187 for less than the cost of a new one.
Financially this is the root of the problem? from experience?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMac2277
If this country fails it will be due to our pitiful education system, corruption, greed, and our immigration laws. Capitalism doesn't work if the people at the top of the financial food chain become so greedy that they resort to stealing while already making billions. Capitalism can only work if the most successful among us are willing to share the wealth and create businesses to employ the masses. Instead they have been caught trying to steal billions from the masses retirement funds. Education is the other big downfall of this country. We have millions of children graduating high school who can barely read or write! Millions more don't graduate. They are too busy reproducing. This country is quickly seeing the end of the middle class. We are headed for the very poor and the very rich. As for me, I am moving next year to another area of the world. Having lived everyday of my life in Texas, I can no longer communicate with most of the people around me, nor can I read most of the signs in the grocery stores. If I am going to be forced to speak a language other than English, I should at least have the privilige of traveling to another country! We have allot bigger problems than our boating industry going under, that is just the tip of the iceberg!!!
How hard is it to sell socialism to a millions of unemployed, hungry Americans?
When I was young I grew up in a summer resort community surronded by old money wealth people who came to relax in my town. Between my father and my self I met some of those pre Dot com, and mortgage seller broker people that we all hear about their bonusses now. Conservatives of yesterday were more then happy making a little profit on a lot of business and putting lotsa people to work in the united states making things?????? They usually lived good but believe me they truly did not flaunt their wealth. I think this economy is going to grind down so hard that the greed of the new wealthy will make socialism very desirable to many? Take that to the bank with the 17% unemployed yes the ammount of unemployment average being paid is 9% but the other 9% have exhausted their claims and have not found jobs. Dealerships are going to shrink to catch up to the shrinking US economy?
This thread, as many others on the same topic, is sorta all over the place. There are valid points on both sides of the dealer-customer argument.
One thing that seems to get glossed over or left out entirely when some espouse this new dealerless boat sales agenda is the cost of those sales. Whether through a dealer or by the mfg directly, sales come at a cost. Sales commissions, brochures, demo rides, boat shows, etc, etc, etc will still be around and still have to be paid for by someone. Currently, dealers, for the most part, handle those items and pay the cost out of their revenue. If the shift is to a direct sales approach then the mfg will pay those expenses. The expenses are still there, the burden of payment just shifts.
So what is left as a "savings" to the consumer? The dealer's profit? Since the dealer's profit is not anywhere near what most of you think it is, there won't be a huge savings to be realized. But any savings is a good deal for the consumer, right? Well, wait just a second. Who's going to handle those warranty claims that are bound to pop up. The mfg will just hire out the work to an independent operation you say. The independent service guy, in all likelihood, won't offer as favorable a rate as the previous dealer did. Warranty cost goes up, less savings for the consumer.
And what of the quality of the warranty work. How will the mfg hold the independent guy's feet to the fire? Maybe the independent will do a good job, maybe not. If the mfg's have a hard time with their dealers providing quality service, imagine what could happen with an independent guy.
Someone wrote that the mfg's could provide demo boats to dealers so the dealers don't have the floorplan burden. Man, what dealer wouldn't want someone would give them a boat to "demo". If the sales aren't there, oh well, at least it didn't cost anything. But it does cost someone. The mfg has to build the boat and put it at that dealers lot. Again, just shifting the expense from one entity to another. Eating up that savings again.
Should the mfg be remunerated for all the additional work he's doing as a factory direct sales organization. I'm afraid the answer from some of you would be an adamant no. Somehow, I don't think too many of you guys would be willing to take on a bunch of extra work for no additional pay.
I'd like to remind everyone there's no free lunch. You can't get everything for nothing. The direct approach certainly can work, especially for the niche players. But those direct sales don't come at no cost to you, they are built in. There could be some savings, I just think too many believe it will cut the cost of a new boat by a very large percentage. I also don't think direct sales will work for a company that produces several hundred to several thousand boats a year.
Could dealers and mfgs be more efficient? Better businessmen? I'm sure there are many areas for improvement in the marine industry just as there is in any business. If you've got a surefire, newfangled way to run the boat business, the world is your oyster. Come on, pluck the pearls.
The costs that will be squeezed out of the system:
1. Financing costs, and the total capital costs of having the boat available at a hundred locations or so
2. Sales force costs - same as above - no more need to pay salesmen to sit around OR collect a commission
3. Facility costs at the dealer - square footage, utilities, other costs of having space required to showroom/sell boats
4. Losses on leftovers that have to be absorbed by sales on fresh stock where the dealer tries to maintain a hard line - looked at another way depreciation on old inventory.
5. Local advertising
6. Dealer's profit.
All of the above represent the average difference between wholesale and retail costs.
Offsetting this is the need to have a central sales force at the dealer, and the need to allocate more support and resources to building the service only fixed or virtual network, which covers your second point about seervice quality. 20-25% over cost is plenty to cover these incremental expenses.
Don't forget that one little item that hasn't been mentioned in the last several posts; namely the "trade-in" How many builders will take one? Can all of you sell your own boat before you buy another?
Who does the in water testing for the buyer? All I see here is transferring facility, salespeople, who all just "sit around", warranty, service, storage and whatever to the builder--not to mention the finance costs since the builder must cash flow as well. A large manufacturer won't be able to pull this off and a small one won't want to hire the personnel.
I notice that the only people claiming that it can't happen are the dealers themselves. Would it surprise anyone if 50% of the boat builders that were in business in 2008 cease to exist by 2012.......What effect will that have those dealers?
sorry about your expenses to keep a dealership open.
Freight and prep on teh boat I paid for and probably more then it cost you
oil yes I paid to have the oil changed and probably more then it cost you
yoru employees yes I pay close to $100 hr and that is a lot more then you pay your employees
basically my point is everything you sell you make money on or why would you do it? I am ok with that, but my dealer was a lying scum bag. Sure there is good and bad dealers but for the most part they over promise and under deliver. So I agree if I can save money and buy direct and service with my own people and they get reimbursed by the manufacturor then tough. I do expect the dealers to sell direct and have small shop mechanics to pop up everywhere. That is if you don't force everyone that keeps his boat in your marina to use yoru shop at expensive rates and outlandish costs and not allow a boat owner to do his own work after paying high dockage fees.
Businesses fail because they don't plan and see the future and adapt to it.
I don't want to see financial pain on anyone, but when times were good us as boat owners were at your mercy for service, costs and your schedule. Sorry the tables have turned, but hopefully you will adapt to our new needs.
Blame the customers all you want, I won't be the one going belly up because someone didn't treat the customers as they should have......
I am sorry but you once again you have changed positions, my forgetful friend! And I quote you!
“Time for the builders to rethink their marketing, and distribution. If they were to cut out the 25% dealer mark up and the $3000 freight and prep BS, maybe they'd sell a few more boats.”
Then a few post later, “Nobody forced you into the boat business and if it is so difficult then get the hell out, its still a free country isn't it.”…..“Do you think that the average consumer gives a rats ass about the local car dealership having a tough time……”
I have never once switched sides or deviated from my position. I have identified myself in my first post…”I am/ was…. A new boat dealer, and have been in my own business for 16/17 years, and was a mechanic before that. I started in a 2000 sq foot shop, by myself, and grew it to a three location dealership in two states employing up to twenty one full and part time employees. My dealership was the forty second in the nation to be NMMA certified… witch I found means NOTHING to most of you… and we held an average of 97.5% CSI rating with our customer feedback, according to Monterey, and higher with Everglade’s owners. So, I feel that I can talk with some type of expertise in this field. This kind of naïve and hostile attitude towards dealers is unbelievable.”
I am not defending all dealers and I never put the blame on all customers. Just people like you who promote “screw the dealer they are the scum of the earth that work for the love of money”.
My intensions here are to get you, the customer, to understand that the majority of the problems in this industry are the manufacture. When was the last time anyone went to a new car dealership that did not have a service shop? Yet having a dealership that works off of 5% margins in the shadows of a large marina with no employees other than one or two salesmen is common in this industry.
It is very common for us, the dealer, to pull a new boat off of a truck and put 20 to 40 man hours in it fixing things that should have been done at the factory, only to have them refuse to pay more than 10 hours. Who pays for that? We do! How many of you reading this article care if the dealer is NMMA certified? Do you have any idea of the cost associated with doing that or what that means? I am going to start a new thread asking that question. Let’s see the response.
These basic problems exist in most every business, and that is what is killing this country. Before anyone asks me! NO I will not shop at Wal-Mart! When I bought my last three trucks for my dealership I did not shop 20 different dealerships for the best price. I went to my local Ford dealer with a price in mind that I would be comfortable paying and we did deals. They gave/give me good service and I plan on buying my next trucks off of them.
Not a Boat dealer, However a Business owner 
. Why would you when there are so many great deals on used boats? That has got to be hurting new boat dealers as well. 
