Engine Info Please - - - CUMMINS 450C Diamond Series

[prowlersfish]

f08 - 12/5/2008 8:10 PM

I don't have anything against boatdiesel, I just think that looking for in-depth information on a forum can waste a lot of time. But if it works for you, then stick with it.

And like I said, Cummins doesn't publish compression specs. I think it's because a lot of their engines are sleeveless, so when they lose compression, they can't be rebuilt like a Detroit. My 330B passes the cold start test with 8,200 hours, but it has lost a lot of compression and gets worse fuel economy than it used to.

Who says you can't rebuilt them ? your car engine has no removable sleeves and it can be rebuilt correct ? 8,200 hours ? great if you had a 450hp 671 you would be on rebuild #4 . but sound like your Cummins is due for rebuild #1 .

As far as in-depth info I believe you find more real world info on boatdiesel then anywhere . I know learn a lot there . more then any book from Cummins. I bet Bill D will agree.

[f08]

I said you can't rebuild them like a detroit, since they are not sleeved. And you can overpower a 671 just like you can overpower any engine, but at a reasonable power level, the B that we both have does not compete with the 671 for longevity. I spend most of my time at idle, so I am expecting a lot more than 8,200 hours out of my 330.

[prowlersfish]

both the B and the 671 will run for ever at 200 hp or so . at the same hp per lilter I would say the longevity would be close . both engines not take care of in high output form can be short lived . I have had both engines and like them both.

Back to what this post is all about as far as a 450 hp engine I think the 450C is one of the best !

[rebriel53]

Goodness...why do diesel folks beat up on each other on this forum?? Honestly, on boatdiesel forum...jeeze folks there....are just trying to solve problems for one another.

For the Cummins folks here....let's keep the info flowing.

Bill

[rebriel53]

Yes.....Bill D agrees....boatdiesel forum....like it...or don't subscribe.....offers the BEST info an owner of Cummins, CAT, Volvo, DD, Yanmar, Steyr, Perkins..could EVER get from a manual.

Boatdiesel forum.....has dealers/owners of ALL diesel engines that have gone through all possible prolems, the dealer/owners have "real world" solutions no manual could ever cover.

My opinion,,

Bill

[prowlersfish]

Bill the forums sure are different between THT and Boatdiesel . Peter C. keeps Boatdiesel site very professional . I myself act differently here then there . Web sites take time and money to run , one way boatdiesel covers this is with the membership fee that gives you more info the what you get for free . You just don't have all the adds like other sites . I remember when I bought a wheel here to support this site and it looks like you have also .

[twobyfour]

What is it with f08 guy? He wants everyone to read a book or manual. He says that if you want to pay for advice, get a real mechanic. Well,FYI Boatdiesel is full of REAL mechanics and is one of the most insightful forums I have ever been on. Why pay a single mechanic when you can go on boat diesel on get info from probably at least 20 or 30 mechanics. If your into diesel boating, this will be the best 25 bucks you ever spend. As far as the manual's and books thing, it reminds me of architects who can draw things on paper but when it comes time for the real world application, things don't work out. In other words, I would rather learn from people with real world, hands on experience than some book or manual. Sure, if your going to do a rebuild yourself, you will need a manual, but how many of us do that?

[auguste]

Hi Guys . . . never thought starting this post would end up being animated . . . let me present my conclusions

1. The consensus on THT and BoatDiesel is that the Cummins 450 C is a good engine and if well maintained will be great for my use

2. Knowing that engines are known for being quality good engines I feel more comfortable spending $1,500 to make the 10 hour drive (one way) to look at a used boat that is powered by those engines . . . complete with 2 nights hotel and meals and car expenses . . . thanks for the feedback

3. I am happy that I have my current Volvo manuals because they are good enough to allow me to make the minor fixes needed to save a day's fishing or to ge me back to port . . . they have helped me thatb way on three separate occassions . . . would not leave port without them

Conclusions

1. I made the right decision to ask about the engines on THT and to purchase a membership on BoatDiesel

2. If I end up buying the boat I am going to see in two weeks, then I will ask on THT and BoatDiesel what are the spare parts and tools I need to keep on board to keep those Cummins humming . . . basic getting unstuck repairs and maintenance

3. I will buy a complete set of maintenance manuals for the engines

Thanks everyone

[f08]

rebriel53 - 12/5/2008 11:27 PM

Yes.....Bill D agrees....boatdiesel forum....like it...or don't subscribe.....

Bill

I couldn't agree more.

[sbmar.com]

F08,

I do not really know much about you, (I'm a total "newbe here") and you probably know close to nothing about me, and that’s totally cool.. But since you seem to be pre-occupied about “sleeves” and the like, I thought I run something by you I first posted on boatdiesel about 9 years ago.. I think you should consider looking at the “rebuild-ability” of a modern diesel engine a tad different than what a Detroit 6-71 is.. And understand this, the 6-71 Detroit set the “Gold Standard” of being able to be rebuilt over 50 years ago ( it was part of the original scheme of things) , and nothing has ever even come close to that, other than other low HP Detroit’s built with the design same ideas in mind.. But also realize that to this day, I still cannot believe how clever the design engineers were in those days (remember, no computers or CNC machines-- just a drafting pencil and a lot of talent) to come up with a diesel with the unique features the 6-71 had…But all that is long gone…We now have to deal with 60++++ hp per liter of displacement and well under 4 lbs of Iron per HP and keep it running…It's just the way it is, and we have to work around it, like it or not............................... After all, seems you want the performance too !!

But, back to my point-----Has anything changed about my politics on the subject in the last 9 years on this ??????—Yes, it has.. After dealing with the Cummins B since 1985 and selling, installing, and watching over 100’s of them for a gazillion cumulative hours, I am even more convinced that the B series Cummins is the most rebuildable engine ever made in this size range / performance range…Way cheaper to do a full rebuilt on it than a 6-71, sleeves or not when you look at everything combined, and that also means HP per lb and per liter.. Ever had a DDC 6-92 at 500++++ hp ??? Ever heart the term "Expload-a- Motor??-- It did not come form a 300/330 Diamond, trust me... My point—don’t compare 2500 +++ lbs of IRON at under 200 max HP to a 330 Diamond as to rebuildability—It ain’t apples for apples…

BTW, congrats on the hours you have on your “B”—obviously you are doing something VERY right..

Keep Fishin’

Tony


Read On !!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




Sleeves: To have or not to have? That’s a good question…... If my memory serves me correctly, the first time I heard the term "throw away engine," was back in the early 70s and someone was referring to the 3208 CAT. Wow, did that start something! Sure, this engine has no sleeves, but I don’t think that even comes close to implying that the engine is a "throw away." The 3208 CAT has a great reputation and is alive and well today.. I’m sure the fine engineers at CAT who developed this engine would take exception to that term, and I’m also sure this term has become so inbred in the marine environment that many of the same fine engineers that developed our diesels today have had many sleepless nights over this undeserved label. Some of the reasons that diesel engines like the 3208, 3116, 3126, "B" Series Cummins, the LP Series Yanmars, and the new 6LY-2 Yanmars, to name a few popular engines today, have no sleeves is strictly by design. Superior heat dissipation, compactness, and weight savings vs. overall strength, initial cost of design and manufacture, are just a few of the design reasons for the lack of sleeves, or, my preferred term, "a PARENT BORE engine or block." If we’re talking about a sleeved engine, it can be wet or dry and both have certain advantages and disadvantages. Wet sleeves (or liners) have engine coolant directly in contact with their outer surface and various methods are used to contain coolant properly within the engine. Dry liners, as the name implies, are pushed into the bore of a block (the Yanmar 6LY 315 & 350 are examples) and have no contact with the engine coolant. Yes, a sleeved engine is usually easier to rebuild (cheaper in some cases) than parent bore engines, but usually only if cylinder damage or excessive wear is one of the reasons for the rebuild. Most installations in high use commercial boats dictate the use of a sleeved engine strictly due to rebuilding down the road (sometimes "top ends" every few yrs.) Most all of the popular "parent bore" engines today can be rebuilt by either boring of the block and using an oversized piston, or, boring of the block and putting in a dry sleeve (sans one, the 6LY-2, according to Yanmar cannot be bored.) But many rebuilds, from my own personal experience with parent bore engines, have only required good honing and rings to accomplish this part of a rebuild. I think the most important thing I’ve learned over the years about sleeved or sleeveless engines has nothing to do with whether the engine is a "throw away." It’s much simpler than that. It is strictly the overall cost of the rebuild. Is it economical? Can you afford to buy the parts to rebuild it? Do you really want to give this engine ANOTHER LIFE? I’m sure I’m not the only one who has seen those "green" engines in the dumpster. This is a classic example of a finely engineered "sleeved engine" advertised as being easy to rebuild because of its sleeved design that is NOT practical to rebuild because of the economics and the cost of parts…. Just some simple numbers on the current rebuilding costs of a 400C Cummins: Under $325 per hole (typical street pricing), which includes new pistons, rings, liners, rod bearings, front/rear seals, pan and head gaskets and miscellaneous peripheral gaskets. New injectors are about $100 each. Labor costs what it costs, as with all boat or engine work. These costs might be used as a comparison for what I believe are realistic parts costs that make an engine rebuildable. Just a few months ago a customer looked into the cost of cylinder kits and miscellaneous necessary parts to do a "complete top end" on a pair of 15 year old (low hour) 6 cylinder dry SLEEVED Isuzu’s….. About $6000 per engine…That’s just parts. He bought 220 Diamonds instead. This past week, I sold a pair of Cummins B’s to a customer w/ Ford Lehman’s that the manifolds had rotted thru. The engines were still in good shape but the parts to repair were $4000+ per engine.. Strictly economics here… Feel free to offer your insights to this somewhat controversial subject……………………………………………Seaboard Marine

[Sleeper]

Tony, It's nice (and refreshing) to have you over here. Consider sticking around as your diesel knowledge will bring a wealth of information to this forum.

I have always thought that the "throw away" comments for non-sleeved engines were hog wash as there are very few that can't be bored over or --a light honing is all they really need. You make a good point with parts costs and of course let's not forget to add in doesel mechanic and machine shop service labor that probably is what drives most rebuild decisions. Of course some deep thinking about "what do I really have here when I am done" compared to upgrading to more modern technology sometimes makes the decison for you.

As someone who does this for a living, what would you say is the percentage of diesel heavy repair/rebuilds due to being "worn out" as compared to catastrophic failure of a critical part long before the internal wear of a cylinder is even close? From what I see there aren't that many engines that make it to what should be rebuild hours.

[f08]

Tony,

That's pretty funny. I know that was from a decade ago, but if you can rebuild my engine for anywhere close to $325 a hole, I'll have Cummins Southeastern send my engine to you personally. Actually, I'll double that and pay for shipping myself.

[sbmar.com]

F08,

9 years ago----

"400C Cummins: Under $325 per hole (typical street pricing), which includes new pistons, rings, liners, rod bearings, front/rear seals, pan and head gaskets and miscellaneous peripheral gaskets. New injectors are about $100 each. Labor costs what it costs, as with all boats or engine work."

You're a funny guy & you need to read better too-- Need some parts for a current 450 Diamond??



Current costs--450 Diamond CPL8089- Genuine Cummins parts, not "Will Fit"-- Just like I said above, but now at under $550/hole..Injectors ( 5-hole) at $165 each these days.. Send me a PO and your CC info & contact info, I'll process, and pay the freight 48/states.... .As I said 9 years ago, labor cost what it costs as will all boats and engine work...Better hurry because in another 9 yrs, it may cost about $700/hole for the same parts. BTW, a late 330 Diamond, about $360 / hole for the parts listed-- Injectors at about $135 ea outright...................................Hurry !!!!!!

Tony

[Bruce W]

Gus,

What are you going to look at/location? Just curious - I'm excited for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You can just PM me, if you like - I wouldn't want someone to get to it before YOU have a chance to look it over!

Did you get the pics of your boat I e-mailed you?

Margie and I may go down to OBX sometime in January - after all the holiday stuff is over with.

Best regards,

[auguste]

Bruce W - 12/7/2008 2:03 AM Gus, What are you going to look at/location? Just curious - I'm excited for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You can just PM me, if you like - I wouldn't want someone to get to it before YOU have a chance to look it over! Did you get the pics of your boat I e-mailed you? Margie and I may go down to OBX sometime in January - after all the holiday stuff is over with. Best regards,

Hi Bruce

You have a PM

[captddis]

f08 - 12/5/2008 5:10 PM

I don't have anything against boatdiesel, I just think that looking for in-depth information on a forum can waste a lot of time. But if it works for you, then stick with it.

And like I said, Cummins doesn't publish compression specs. I think it's because a lot of their engines are sleeveless, so when they lose compression, they can't be rebuilt like a Detroit. My 330B passes the cold start test with 8,200 hours, but it has lost a lot of compression and gets worse fuel economy than it used to.

I have to disagree, Of course everyone should have a manual, but there are many things that a manual does not tell you. There is no substitute for hands on practical knowledge and that is what you find on Boatdiesel. For Cummins engines no one is more knowledgeable than Tony A.
I do marine engines for a living and find tons of useful info on BD. BTW Cummins parts books are the worst. However you can just call SBMAR and they know right away what you want.

[f08]

sbmar.com - 12/6/2008 9:13 PM
You're a funny guy & you need to read better too-- Need some parts for a current 450 Diamond??

The first thing I said was that I realize that was from a decade ago. The point is, as you have said too, nobody rebuilds Cummins Bs.

And did you really just tell me I need to read better and then try to sell me parts? That has got to be the worst salesmanship I've seen.

[Pequod]

Hey F08:

Sometimes its tough to be corrected by the resident expert! Thats why you have two ears and only one mouth....Listen twice as much.........
as you speak..............However in your case President Lincoln sums it up............."Better to be thought of as a fool than open ones mouth and remove all doubt." I bet you are a joy to work with!

[prowlersfish]

f08 - 12/7/2008 8:44 AM

The first thing I said was that I realize that was from a decade ago. The point is, as you have said too, nobody rebuilds Cummins Bs.


And did you really just tell me I need to read better and then try to sell me parts? That has got to be the worst salesmanship I've seen.

Fo8 do you need glases as your seeing things I don't . also it seems like your signed up under f08 just but down BD and other things on this thread . it seems like you read half whats said here and then /ignore imagine the rest . no wonder you can't get good info of a web site fourm .

Nobody rebuilds Cummins B ?? thats not what I read .

I read " I am even more convinced that the B series Cummins is the most rebuildable ever"

[f08]

captddis - 12/7/2008 5:12 AM
For Cummins engines no one is more knowledgeable than Tony A.

This quote should make you think a little bit. Being a diesel mechanic is not rocket science. I have a good mechanic at Cummins Southeastern, but there are good diesel mechanics all over the place. I don't think my engine has lasted for 8,200 hours because my mechanic is some kind of miracle worker. Keeping diesels running a long time just takes a little common sense. Here is a quote that I thought was pretty funny:

sbmar.com
Pass them to me and I'll tell you what no surveyor will tell you...

I'm sure Tony is a good mechanic too, but if you believe he is the only mechanic who knows anything about diesels, then has done a better job of salesmanship with you than he has done with me.