Engine Info Please - - - CUMMINS 450C Diamond Series

[f08]

Ok, I just saw five question marks for two questions and took it a different way. I have a 6BTA, too, but everything you said is in the manual. You need to go through the raw water side of your engine regardless of whether it is diesel or gas, and the maintenance interval is in the manual, as are the fuel/oil/air filter intervals. If it were really that complicated, diesels wouldn't have the reputation for longevity that they have.

[auguste]

My experience in almost 5 years with THT is that half the responses to the technical questions I have asked have provided me with good to great technical information . . . a lot of which I would never have found in a manual . . . a manufacturer's manual will not tell me that their engine is a dog . . . a manufacturer's manual will not tell me that their boat slams and pounds in 2 ft waves

In addition to technical information THT has provided me with tons of practical information about things that I didn't know or whould have thought of doing. In this case

- Make sure that they don't start the engines before you get there

- Don't let them use the block heaters before you get there (stone cold engine starts)

- Boat Diesel is a wealth of information especially for resolving technical problems . . . yup the engine manual may tell me how to repair an engine but BoatDiesel (spent 3 hours there last night) put the engine in a marine environment and identified problems unique to a marine environment e.g. prop loading, electrogalvanic corrossion etc. etc. etc.

Asking questions on THT also brings offers of assistance

Guys like Tony offering to help

Guys like Steve and Philip who gave me their experience, real hands on experience because they own the engines

Guys like Ant1 who have friends selling boats (which might meet my need) but who stood up and gave their opinions . . . and took time to talk to me on the phone

Thanls everyone for the help, suggestions and info

[riffraff2]

So what boat are you looking at ?

[offshore27ns]

My Dad has them in his boat and they have been great for the most part. His has had problems with one of the turbos recently...not sure exactly what. It was a long time for it to kick in. I am not sure if it was an electronic issues or other. PM me if you want me to find out exaclty what the issues was.

[chrisjb]

f08 - 12/5/2008 12:23 AM

Ok, I just saw five question marks for two questions and took it a different way. I have a 6BTA, too, but everything you said is in the manual. You need to go through the raw water side of your engine regardless of whether it is diesel or gas, and the maintenance interval is in the manual, as are the fuel/oil/air filter intervals. If it were really that complicated, diesels wouldn't have the reputation for longevity that they have.

f08 welcome to the forum. I just wanted to say that while your first post is a valid generalization, its really not on target with this specific post or something that the original poster, with his time and experience on this board, is not aware. Additionally, the op mimics a customer survey, which many companies find to be very helpful.

While I do not have diesel engines (I sure would like them and fantasize and have researched repowering in depth) I have learned a lot from other diesel engine owners, and have been fortunate that a few are life-long diesel mechanics who can also speak in depth on them, as well as why they chose the specific engines they did over others. FWIW, a 450C was on my short list, but they won't fit.

Anyway, my 2 cents regarding what's been posted:
Compression test - prob not necessary if cold start procedure done and engines respond as described. Doing the compression test on a diesel is nothing like doing it on a gasser.....pulling injectors could be a 10 min job, or could be a few days. After which, you better not get ANY dirt/impurities on the tips (thorough mechanics will have a special holder to keep them, not "clean" but immaculate) Then the whole fuel system will need to be bled. So your talking alot of $$$ for potentially little info. There are easier and cheaper ways to determine blow-by.

Gas and diesel are not the same, especially when it comes to cooling. Overheat a gas engine, and it can live to tell about it. Overheat a diesel and its "film at 11"; so its imperative that the cooling system on a diesel is always working at 100%, not like 80% that you can get away with on a gasser.

Oil analysis - questionable. Many "experts" will say the results are only valid when comparing one analysis to another on the same engine taken over time. The first establishes a base-line for the specific engine and the rest monitor how the engine is changing in performance over time and helps you better time routine maintenance. (think in terms of maintaining a trucking fleet). Accordingly, the results of a one-time analysis is virtually meaningless.

[auguste]

chrisjb - 12/5/2008 7:47 AM

Oil analysis - questionable. Many "experts" will say the results are only valid when comparing one analysis to another on the same engine taken over time. The first establishes a base-line for the specific engine and the rest monitor how the engine is changing in performance over time and helps you better time routine maintenance. (think in terms of maintaining a trucking fleet). Accordingly, the results of a one-time analysis is virtually meaningless.

I had not thought ofoil analysisthat way. Thanks for the new insight.

[auguste]

riffraft2 A 1998 39 ft Hatteras Express is the one I am currently looking at

offshore27ns You have a PM

[f08]

chrisjb - 12/5/2008 4:47 AM

f08 welcome to the forum. I just wanted to say that while your first post is a valid generalization, its really not on target with this specific post or something that the original poster, with his time and experience on this board, is not aware. Additionally, the op mimics a customer survey, which many companies find to be very helpful.

While I do not have diesel engines (I sure would like them and fantasize and have researched repowering in depth) I have learned a lot from other diesel engine owners, and have been fortunate that a few are life-long diesel mechanics who can also speak in depth on them, as well as why they chose the specific engines they did over others. FWIW, a 450C was on my short list, but they won't fit.

Anyway, my 2 cents regarding what's been posted:
Compression test - prob not necessary if cold start procedure done and engines respond as described. Doing the compression test on a diesel is nothing like doing it on a gasser.....pulling injectors could be a 10 min job, or could be a few days. After which, you better not get ANY dirt/impurities on the tips (thorough mechanics will have a special holder to keep them, not "clean" but immaculate) Then the whole fuel system will need to be bled. So your talking alot of $$$ for potentially little info. There are easier and cheaper ways to determine blow-by.

Gas and diesel are not the same, especially when it comes to cooling. Overheat a gas engine, and it can live to tell about it. Overheat a diesel and its "film at 11"; so its imperative that the cooling system on a diesel is always working at 100%, not like 80% that you can get away with on a gasser.

Oil analysis - questionable. Many "experts" will say the results are only valid when comparing one analysis to another on the same engine taken over time. The first establishes a base-line for the specific engine and the rest monitor how the engine is changing in performance over time and helps you better time routine maintenance. (think in terms of maintaining a trucking fleet). Accordingly, the results of a one-time analysis is virtually meaningless.

Hey Chris,

Thanks for the welcome. I agree with you that oil analysis only matters over time. And overheating a diesel is usually worse than overheating a gasser, especially with a turbo. I wouldn't say a cold start is a replacement for a compression test, which you can do pretty easily on a 450C. But I do think that if you are going to pay for advice, you should be paying a mechanic you trust. And if you really want to know your engines, searching through a bunch of old forum posts is not a very reliable or convenient way of doing it.

Look at auguste's last post. He spent three hours on that forum last night learning about prop loading and galvanic corrosion. In that time he could have read a book on the subject of marine diesels, and he would know a lot more about his engines than he learned spending three hours searching through a bunch of forum posts.

[auguste]

f08 - 12/5/2008 9:20 AM Look at auguste's last post. He spent three hours on that forum last night learning about prop loading and galvanic corrosion. In that time he could have read a book on the subject of marine diesels, and he would know a lot more about his engines than he learned spending three hours searching through a bunch of forum posts.

Your assumption about what I learned is false.

My library contains at least 25 books about diesel engines . . . some going back 30 years.

No single book can every give me the breadth of experience of many knowledgeable users as does a forum such as THT or BoadDiesel

I would appreciate that you do not try to lecture me or make assumptions or claims about how I could best use my time to become better informed, nor as to where or from whom I obtain that information.

If I buy a boat with Cummins 450C engines, then I can assure you that I will have the complete set of enging and transmission manuals, as I do for my current Volvo engines.

[SeaJay]

Typical of THT - the advice given by a sizeable percentage of the posters reads like this: "Go get a manual and figger it out yourself, and ps-go away+ don't post anymore silly questions"

[f08]

auguste-didn't mean to lecture you. Sounds like you have found a valuable resource.

[auguste]

f08 - 12/5/2008 10:14 AM auguste-didn't mean to lecture you. Sounds like you have found a valuable resource.

Thanks

[ramrunner]

I have a pair of 370B's that Tony @ Seaboard Marine and boatdiesel.com have helped me with. There is a huge amount of information and real world professional knowledge on the B & C series Cummins on boatdiesel.com and from Tony's company.

The advice and technical information they give is based on hundreds of thousands of hours on these engines in recreational and commercial use.

The 450C has a very good reputation if propped correctly and if maintained they could yeild you a long service life. Good Luck.

Sam Prater

[rebriel53]

Sam, good to see you on the forum, Bill D here. When the gents posted taking a look @ the 450 Cs, I suggested to Tony Athens Seaboard Marine that he "jump in" on this forum. Nice folks here, but No Peter Compton to keep EVERYTHING strictly technical posting wise. Hope all is well with your 370s and you had/having a good season.

Me, you know my present situtaition, 31 Balckfin gutted, motors to fix etc.

Should be back in the water May 15th, or no later than June 1.

Have a good x-mas.

Bill D.

[blueh20pc]

I can attest to Auguste having the manuals, parts, and knowing how to work on the engines.

He threw a supercharger belt on the (Port or Starboard, don't remember) Volvo two years ago outside the inlet, and I thought we were going home for the day.

Nope, out comes a spare belt, the gimme ten minutes routine, watch the shoals, and we ended up fishing for the day.

Very intelligent and methodically prepared man. Sounds like you found good motors there Gus. Due diligence of course, before you're acquisition.

[prowlersfish]

f08 - 12/4/2008 11:51 AM

Make sure you do a compression test. Cummins policy is not to do them, which doesn't make much sense. And steer clear of forums that try to charge you for posting your own views. If you want to pay for advice, get a good mechanic. A forum is a pretty bad format for mechanical information, anyway.

You seem to have join just to say something here aganst boatdiesel . I can tell you is that it will be the best money you spend if you even think about a Diesel .

On the Cummins compression test. can you tell me what the specs are ? bet you can't.

[f08]

I don't have anything against boatdiesel, I just think that looking for in-depth information on a forum can waste a lot of time. But if it works for you, then stick with it.

And like I said, Cummins doesn't publish compression specs. I think it's because a lot of their engines are sleeveless, so when they lose compression, they can't be rebuilt like a Detroit. My 330B passes the cold start test with 8,200 hours, but it has lost a lot of compression and gets worse fuel economy than it used to.

[auguste]

blueh20pc - 12/5/2008 7:07 PM

He threw a supercharger belt on the (Port or Starboard, don't remember) Volvo two years ago outside the inlet, and I thought we were going home for the day. Nope, out comes a spare belt, the gimme ten minutes routine, watch the shoals, and we ended up fishing for the day.

Hi Chris . . . and it was a great day of fishing

[geauxnadd]

f08, Cs are sleeved

[f08]

geauxnadd, I know.