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A couple years ago, the EPA mandated the removal of phosphorus and zinc from engine oils to keep those high pressure lubricants from fouling catalytic converters on cars that burned oil. When they were removed without adequate notice to the public, many camshaft manufacturers found themselves getting dozens of cams back for lobe failure. Many of us went to diesel oils, like Rotella T, to keep those essential lubricants in our marine engines. About that same time, most auto manufacturers were going to roller lifter cams for their fuel economy benefits, so they had no lobe problems. At the same time, the oil manufacturers modified their formulas as best possible to prevent engine failures.
When the EPA mandated catalytic converters on diesels in light and medium duty trucks, the phosphorus and zinc disappeared from the "Newly Reformulated" Rotella T and we were once again left without adequate oils.
Today, I saw a bottle of Mobil 1 for V-twins. Yeah, V-twin motorcycles get there own formulation of Mobil 1. But here's the best part. Since there are no cats on the bikes, they also get the phosphorus and zinc!
I realize that V-twin oil is not NMMA certified for marine use and I don't really care. I can tell you that I am sure thinking about stocking up and running it in my LS-6 El Camino and my outboards. The V-twin oil seems to be different from their standard oil in that it has friction modifiers that are needed in oils for common sump bikes (where the clutch runs in engine oil).
But if Mobil 1 makes bike oils with phosphorus and zinc, other people must make them as well. Anybody know of other brands or reasons why we should not use the stuff?
Bikes have had converters for a couple of years now...
Also, at that link, Exxon claims to make a great bike V-Twin oil, claiming reduced oil consumption, and an excellent additive package for long lay ups.
But advertising is often tricky, with some companies touting their weakest points being on the offensive.
In this case, it may be true. Exxon "Mobile 1" 20w-50 has a Noack of 13.0, and a TBN of 5.0.
Amsoil 15-40 Marine diesel oil has a Noack of 6.7, and a TBN value of 12.0.
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Noack = % weight loss when heated at 250 deg C (almost 500 deg F) for 1 hour.
TBN = Total Base Number (TBN) describes the acid neutralization ability of an oil, with higher TBN oils providing longer lasting acid neutralization. Synthetics nearly always have higher TBN values than petroleum oils do. The result: longer and better acid neutralization capability allowing for extended drain use.
Thanks Kern. I've got my 2 302's out now. First one is torn down and flat tappet lifters/cam still look ok. Wouldn't be that way if we didn't have the additives in the oil.
To those of you with older, non-roller cam engines: It is IMPERATIVE that you use an oil that contains these additives. The highest shear in an engine is the lifter/cam interface, not the bearings.
Your post is the exact reason that the National Marine Manufacturers Association, NMMA, came up with the requirements for 4 stroke outboard oils called FC-W.
Since outboards do not need to comply with automotive oil specs, they have the extra anti-wear additives and in heavier concentrations for the different running characteristics that outboards need.
On another note, Yamaha just reformulated their FC-W 4M oil for the second time to reduce the Phorsphorous and Zinc, yet retained the FC-W certification. I'll bet they are setting the stage for catalytic equipped outboards in the near future.
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*... personally possessing more tools than talent !
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Amsoil makes some excellent marine oil. Its the only oil that comes with a lack of lubrication failure warranty. The Best. http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/wcf.aspx
__________________ 2011 18.9 Egret C/K Flats
The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory
seahorse - 11/12/2008 1:12 PM
Your post is the exact reason that the National Marine Manufacturers Association, NMMA, came up with the requirements for 4 stroke outboard oils called FC-W.
I wish I shared your optimism. I've read through the entire NMMA certification procedure for marine oils and while they do have some testing requirements, I was unable to find anything in their specs or test procedure would keep any standard, off the shelf motor oils from passing their tests. As such, I believe the only difference in an NMMA labeled oil is that the oil says NMMA on it. The manufacturer or distributor must simply pay to have the test run on the submitted samples and then pay the license fees to put the NMMA logo on the packages. I saw nothing in the test specs that would keep any decent oil from passing their test. The test consists of salt spray testing on samples coated with oil and then running the oil in an engine for a given time period without failure. I saw nothing that looked like it might require a specific lab test for things like galling resistance.
If I had found any specific requirements for lubricity or additives, I'd say buy only NMMA oils. But I did not and there is still nothing that convinces me that a quart of NMMA oil is in actually different from a quart of off the shelf automotive oil.
If someone can show me where the test requires anything else, I'll be happy to say "yeah, you are right" and start using NMMA oil.
Kerno,
Are saying that Nmma or FW-C oils dont contain the additives you discuss? It seems from the other post here that Yamaha 4 stroke oil contains these additives. I am just curious? I use Yamaha 4 stroke bulk oil.
__________________ "I'm suing the THT and the guy that made it."
Cracker: I'd love to hear that it did. I am an old street rodder and I drive some hardware that I'm not happy to fill with the current oils. Would I run Yamaha four stroke oil in my LS-6? You betcha, if it has the Phosphorus and Zinc. The Mobil 1 Harley oil is about 10 bucks a quart and I'm perfectly happy with dead dinosaurs in a bottle as long as it has the additives that the flat tappet cam needs. I don't need to be rebuilding engines that have never seen cats because all oil sold for cars must not harm cats.
If you can direct me to a website that says Yamaha oil has it, God bless you and I'll run it.
It is the flat tappet camshaft issue that requires the specific anti-wear additives. Most people assume the bearings are the most highly loaded items. Wrong. They are separated from the crank by a wedge of oil, and usually outlast the life of the engine. Current energy efficient oils and NMMA oils are not concerned with flat tappet cam wear issues, because there are few if any engines produced today that still use flat tappets.
The designations of "energy efficient" or NMMA are worthless when choosing a product for older flat tappet engines. Even using a full synthetic is no assurance that you will prevent cam wear.
Look at gear oil for hypoid gears. That stuff stinks because it contains a moly disulfide additive to counteract the tremendous shear at the gear teeth faces.
Don't be suckered by fancy advertising. Understand the problem and use the proper lubricant.
energy efficient oils and NMMA oils are not concerned with flat tappet cam wear issues, because there are few if any engines produced today that still use flat tappets.
NMMA FC-W test procedures use a flat tappet engine, as most, if not all 4-stroke outboards have flat tappets as opposed to roller tappets used in Harleys and modern auto and truck engines.
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*... personally possessing more tools than talent !
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NMMA FC-W test procedures use a flat tappet engine, as most, if not all 4-stroke outboards have flat tappets as opposed to roller tappets used in Harleys and modern auto and truck engines.
We need some more definition here. The tappets in my Honda 225 outboard were the same one used in the Honda Odyssey Van engine. Both the Odyssey and the four stroke outboards are overhead cam engines. My LS-6 uses flat tappets that are also solid tappets (not hydraulic) running on a camshaft in the block, which then uses a pushrod to activate a rocker arm that finally actuates the two and a quarter inch diameter valve. All of that hardware involved has mass, so the fix was to put a heavy enough spring on the valve to counteract the mass and keep the valve train out of "float".
The overhead cam is wonderfully simply in its valve actuation. There's no massive lifter, pushrod or rocker arm with their attendant inertia. Likewise, the cylinder heads are often multi-valve, which means the valves weigh much less. The net result is that the spring pressures used are far lower than the "old style" system. Cam lobe life is greatly affected by spring pressure.
If they'd like to take the NMMA test engine apart and install valve springs like those in my LS-6 that are something like 145 pounds on the seat and 285 pounds open, I'll be more impressed with the ability of the certified oils to prevent cam lobe wear.
While I can't comment on oil chemistry, on my 1992 5.7l Marine Power (Chevy - pre Vortec) inboard I have more than 1700 hours using Mobil 1 15w50 since new, changing it every 75 hrs, it still comes out clean, I have had zero mechanical issues and so I will keep using it.
A better oil for marine engines? 
