The Hull Truth - Boating and Fishing Forum

Go Back   The Hull Truth - Boating and Fishing Forum > BOATING FORUMS > The Boating Forum
Search

Notices

Random Quote: Life's a peach. You slurp your way through the sweet and juicy but sooner or later, you hit the pits!
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-23-2003, 06:06 AM
  #1    
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Mardela Springs, MD
Posts: 21
Default Yamaha F150 vs. 150 HPDI??

I looked at the Yamaha performance charts and have come to the conclusion that the fuel economy is better in the four stroke at low RPM's but at cruising speeds and beyond the HPDI is actually better. The Db level is also comparable throughout. I don't do much trolling but cruise from one shallow water spot to the next. Is there really a reason to switch? I'm also not eager to change the engine oil every 100 hours. I use my motor a lot and this will come all too frequently. (Yes I know there is the added expense of two-cycle oil but I'm used to this)

Another question - is it harder on the four stroke than the HPDI to run at the higher RPM's (four strokes for every revolution sort of thing)? The HPDI has such a good reputation amongst the guides I know, there must be a good reason.

Thanks
KJosenhans is offline  
Old 12-23-2003, 06:30 AM
  #2    
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Bay City MI
Posts: 133
Default Yamaha F150 vs. 150 HPDI??

I have a 150 hpdi now on a Scout 202 Dorado. I also looked at the performance bulletins on the F150 and at trolling speeds it gets considerable better gas milage. I also considered upgrading to the F150. It would cost me about $2500 to upgrade to the F150 if I could sell my hpdi. Thats alot of gas. I also considered getting a kicker. I owned two four strokes and had problems with a 90 making oil. The oil level would rise about an inch every 30 hours. It had gas mixed with the oil which may have bypassed the rings at trolling speeds and also some water. I never could figure out where the water was comming from. I had a leak down test done on it and it was within specs but one of the cylinders was close to not being in spec. I have learned from reading posts on the walleye central website that many people had problems with the 90 and 115 four strokes makeing oil. It also seemed that the more I used my four stroke the less power it had. Running a four cylce engine at high rpms for an extended does'nt seem like it would be good for it. The new F150 is alot different than the 90 and 115 new forged pistons and connecting rod, offset crank, computer controlled etc. It seems like a good design.

My hpdi has not missed a beat, it's very powerful and runs great. Two things I don't like about my hpdi is the smoke smell while trolling and the amount of gas it burns at trolling. A friend of mine just bout a new scout with an F150. I'll wait and see how well that engine runs after 1 or 2 seasons.

I'm sure you will get many different responses on this subject. I am going to wait since the F150 is new and my hpdi has been proven as a great engine.

Joel K Scout 202 Dorado

Joel K is offline  
 
Old 12-23-2003, 02:47 PM
  #3    
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Mardela Springs, MD
Posts: 21
Default Yamaha F150 vs. 150 HPDI??

Thanks Joel

I am in the market for a new motor and I have heard nothing but good about the 150 HPDI. I will be mounting it on a Jones Brothers CF 2000. Does anyone have this setup and what speed can I expect top end? The Yamaha tests I looked at were on a Parker 21SE and with a six inch narrower beam I wonder if the Jones will do even better?

As for the four stroke, I wouldn't run my truck at 4000-5000 RPM for any length of time and I don't see how they expect the four stroke outboards to hold up under this. Maybe someone can tell me if they are built different to hold up under these higher RPM's?
KJosenhans is offline  
Old 12-23-2003, 02:53 PM
  #4    
Senior MemberCaptains Club MemberPLEDGER
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 5,718
Default Yamaha F150 vs. 150 HPDI??

Click > HERE < for previous discussion that I think you'll find relevant to this topic.

I'm currently considering a boat with twin 150 Yamaha's. More than likely, I'll go with the 4-strokes. I've owned a 90-hp 2-stroke and currently have a 225 4-stroke. I prefer the 4-stroke. But honestly, you'll likely be happy with either choice.

Good luck.

Drifter
Drifter is offline  
Old 12-23-2003, 03:07 PM
  #5    
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 2,532
Default Yamaha F150 vs. 150 HPDI??

quote:Originally posted by shorerunner:
I looked at the Yamaha performance charts and have come to the conclusion that the fuel economy is better in the four stroke at low RPM's but at cruising speeds and beyond the HPDI is actually better. The Db level is also comparable throughout. I don't do much trolling but cruise from one shallow water spot to the next. Is there really a reason to switch? I'm also not eager to change the engine oil every 100 hours. I use my motor a lot and this will come all too frequently. (Yes I know there is the added expense of two-cycle oil but I'm used to this)

Another question - is it harder on the four stroke than the HPDI to run at the higher RPM's (four strokes for every revolution sort of thing)? The HPDI has such a good reputation amongst the guides I know, there must be a good reason.

Thanks

A couple of things to consider:

You change your lower unit oil every 100 hours don't you?? What is an oil change at that point?

Even if the mileage is the same (Roughly) there is considerable savings in not buying 2 stroke oil vs buying 4 stroke oil every 100 hours.

The 4 strokes and 2 strokes don't have anything to do with strokes per revolution, what it means is every other stroke the 2 stroke goes bang. The 4 stroke goes bang every 4th stroke so the spark plug fires 1/2 as much. This is 2 stroke have a little more torque...more piston firings and no extra motion for the piston that does no work.

Right now I can't see a good reason to buy the 2 stroke. The 4 stroke is cheaper, lighter and gets as good as or better mileage (In 90% of the usable RPM range)

EDIT: Also 4 stroke has a longer standard warranty 3yrs vs 2 yrs

William
1900CC Key West W/ 115 Yammie 4 stroke
Biggest boat that would fit in my garage!
Somethin-Fishey is offline  
Old 12-23-2003, 03:28 PM
  #6    
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Mardela Springs, MD
Posts: 21
Default Yamaha F150 vs. 150 HPDI??

Somethin-Fishey

You make some very valid points. Thanks. I still wonder how you can run a four stroke outboard at higher rpm's for extended periods when you wouldn't want to run your car or truck engine this high. Can you help me understand this? With the current extended warranty bonus that Yamaha is offering I will get five years for either. Also, I'm always leery of buying first year products.
KJosenhans is offline  
Old 12-23-2003, 04:15 PM
  #7    
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posts: 734
Default Yamaha F150 vs. 150 HPDI??

Shorerunner

I'm not sure a pick-up engine is the best comparison as the engine is typically designed to make more low end torque than high end hp, but having said that, I'm pretty sure on average, most any auto/truck engine would last at constant 4,000 to 5,000 rpms for a comparable amount of time to any outboard, 2 or 4 stroke.

1) Lower rpm's is about better gas mileage, not about engine life. Rolling resistance on the highway is trivial compared to wind resistance at highway speeds, wind resistance at highway speeds is trivial compared to water resistance at comparable speeds - in short it takes 200 hp to move a 3000 pound boat 50 mph in the water, while a 3,000 pound auto probably needs less than 15 hp for the same speeds.

2) Engine life is about % work output over time (ie even low powered autos are vastly overpowered for their work effort compared to boats).

3) Outboards (2 or 4 stroke) typically are not run for anywhere near the # of hours as automobile engines over the same period of time. A typical boat owner won't put more than about 200 hours on an outboard per year where the typical auto is clocking more like 5,000 - 6,000 hours per year. You guessed it, when the commercial guys that run their boats hard (typically charter captains) start racking up those kind of hours, they're replacing the engines every year or so. An auto engine with it's much lower stress (200hp engine, not having to make more than 15-50 most of the time) will last 5-20X as long (measure in total hours run).

4) 4-strokes are known to typically outlast 2-strokes run at the same load over the same amount of time. Most 4-stroke outboard manufactures are predicting longer life not less. This isn't just theory, there are a host of engineering principles having to do w/ efficiencies of combustion and lubrication that make this so. Also, you can follow this entire case history for motorcycles (which are about 15 years ahead of outboards in engineering design) you get the same answer 4-strokes will rule. Yes the current 4-strokes do have issues and some are inferior to some of the current 2-stroke offerings in the same class, but I assure you this will change - 4-stroke will be the outboard of the future, no ifs ands or butts.

Does that help any? Just my opinions, I'm sure others will have theirs.

19' Custom Aluminum, 150 Yamaha
Canazes9 is offline  
Old 12-23-2003, 04:31 PM
  #8    
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Mardela Springs, MD
Posts: 21
Default Yamaha F150 vs. 150 HPDI??

Canazes9

That helps a lot. I should have realized this, as a dealer once told me that if you get 1500 hours from a two stroke outboard you've got your moneys worth. 1500 hours from a car/truck and we'd all be screaming. Is that 150 of yours a two or four? Thanks for the free lesson
KJosenhans is offline  
Old 12-23-2003, 04:53 PM
  #9    
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Anchorage, AK
Posts: 428
Default Yamaha F150 vs. 150 HPDI??

A better 4-stroke engine comparison might be between and outboard motor and a motorcycle engine. High performance 4-cylinder motorcycle engines run at much higher RPM ranges than cars and outboards. I have never known anyone to wear out a motorcycle engine.
Dan in Alaska is offline  
Old 12-23-2003, 05:31 PM
  #10    
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posts: 734
Default Yamaha F150 vs. 150 HPDI??

Shorerunner

My engine is a plain old carb. 2-stroke (there weren't any 4-strokes close to my hp when I bought my 2001 engine, and I was afraid of DFI any brand - due to their earlier problems). I think for all the talk drifter nailed it.

quote: I'm currently considering a boat with twin 150 Yamaha's. More than likely, I'll go with the 4-strokes. I've owned a 90-hp 2-stroke and currently have a 225 4-stroke. I prefer the 4-stroke. But honestly, you'll likely be happy with either choice.


I'm very biased towards the 4-strokes, cause I know how this story ends (the 4-stroke wins, the 2-stroke gets buried), but right now, in many head to head comparisons the 2-stroke may be the better choice for your particular application.

19' Custom Aluminum, 150 Yamaha
Canazes9 is offline  
Old 12-23-2003, 06:17 PM
  #11    
gf
Senior MemberCaptains Club MemberPLEDGER
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: North of Boston
Posts: 10,325
Default Yamaha F150 vs. 150 HPDI??

quote:Originally posted by Canazes9:

A typical boat owner won't put more than about 200 hours on an outboard per year where the typical auto is clocking more like 5,000 - 6,000 hours per year.



Huh?

I'm not arguing the merits of 2 strokes or 4 strokes, but if you are going to make an arguement then at least get your facts straight.

The average boat useage, nationwide, is around 50 hours per year. Maybe in FL, TX or LA the average rises to 100 hours, but 200 hours per year would be considered pretty serious use.

5000-6000 hours per year on the average car? Even using a low average speed of 35 MPH that would be from 175,000-210,000 miles per year! The average mileage driven in the US is just under 12,000 miles per year, according to the US Department of Energy, that's about 1 hour per day.
gf is offline  
Old 12-23-2003, 06:41 PM
  #12    
BannedCaptains Club Member
 
fish factory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 24,623
Default Yamaha F150 vs. 150 HPDI??

Nthing wrong w/either motor, IMO.

Use the 4-s for long trips off shore and extended trolling.

Use the 2-s for quick runs to "fishing hole" and limited slow trolling.

Both style motors provide long, economical service. For maxium performance, 2-s is a little hotter. Look at SKA guys.

So what, if you burn a quart of oil, or change a quart? Fuel mileage is comparable, unless you run far off shore, nt sure you would notice difference. As far as engine life, don't think Honda, Yamaha, and Suzuki would spend millions on short term motors.
fish factory is offline  
Old 12-23-2003, 06:52 PM
  #13    
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posts: 734
Default Yamaha F150 vs. 150 HPDI??

gf

quote: The average boat useage, nationwide, is around 50 hours per year. Maybe in FL, TX or LA the average rises to 100 hours, but 200 hours per year would be considered pretty serious use.

In general I agree w/ you, which is why I said won't put more than.

I put more hours than that on my outboard every year, as do many on this board and I was trying to be conservative.

quote: Even using a low average speed of 35 MPH that would be from 175,000-210,000 miles per year! The average mileage driven in the US is just under 12,000 miles per year, according to the US Department of Energy, that's about 1 hour per day.

Your Right! I missed a decimal point!, but the #'s still favor the 4s easily. Hope you didn't read my first response - out of line - Merry Christmas!
19' Custom Aluminum, 150 Yamaha

*

*
Canazes9 is offline  
Old 12-23-2003, 07:03 PM
  #14    
BannedCaptains Club Member
 
fish factory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 24,623
Default Yamaha F150 vs. 150 HPDI??

WOW, everyone's fired up tnight! All new Chevy pick-ups have hour meters. Believe it or not, after about 78,000 miles, about half city and half interstate, I cannot average over about 31 MPH.
fish factory is offline  
Old 12-23-2003, 07:43 PM
  #15    
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Mardela Springs, MD
Posts: 21
Default Yamaha F150 vs. 150 HPDI??

That's about 2500 hours - not out of reach for a well maintained outboard. I would trade it in on a newer model by then anyway. I think after all is said and done I'll stick with the two HPDI for now. With the bonus warranty and good track record I feel it's the conservative move. I'll probably upgrade to a four once they get some of the bugs out (if they find any, that is). Thanks guys for all the input. Great stuff.
KJosenhans is offline  
Old 12-23-2003, 08:10 PM
  #16    
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Bay City MI
Posts: 133
Default Yamaha F150 vs. 150 HPDI??

I agree that in the future the four stroke will be the way to go but they will be making alot of advancements in the four stroke line in the future. The F150 is alot different than its smaller siblings and may prove to be an excellent motor. I would like to have one but I"ll stick with my hpdi for now and see how the new four strokes do. Like I said in my earlier posts I had some trouble with one of my four strokes. I also heard of a few that needed power heads replaced after less than 100 hours of use. How many car or motorcycle engines need to be replaced that soon.

A marine four stroke engine is under a higher load than other four stroke engines. A car or motorcycle are under minimal load most of the time. Engines that are under more load tend not to last as long. Look at semi trucks or heavy equipment, they all have diesel engines as do large boats. I know many boaters with inboard car style engines that don't make it passed 500 hours before they are rebuilt, they work hard. A two stroke has more low end torque which is what the new four strokes are trying to achieve. My 90 and 50 four strokes worked hard to get my boat planed out, they did it ok and they were proped right but just worked hard. They also seemed to have less power as Theu were broke in and used more.It took them longer to get to top speed than the two strokes. My 90 would even give a puff of smoke on start up after about 100 hours of use. I changed the oil in my engines every 25-30 hours just because I trolled alot. Anyway, enough rambling just my opinions, if yours is different lets hear it.

It is very interesting to get different views on this forum on all different subjects. Keep em comming.

Joel K Scout 202 Dorado

Joel K is offline  
Old 12-24-2003, 04:00 AM
  #17    
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 2,532
Default Yamaha F150 vs. 150 HPDI??

Right now I think car to boat comparisons are pointless. 2 Different engines designed to do 2 different things. yes, both have 5 years extended warranties, however the declining part doesn't start on the 4 stroke for an additional year. So they are not EXACTLY equal, except in time. You are going to run your 2 stroke at high RPM's and it has twice as many combustions as a 4 stroke, why aren't they at risk? I haven't taken my heads off, so this is speculation, but with roller tip followers and such the valvetrain is pretty protected against high speed wear, it is all rolling friction. Much easier than sliding friction.

Back to the car engine for a sec:
Also NASCAR engines turn 8500 for 4 hours straight, and what about the Dyson car at Daytona for the Rolex 24. They use a Jack Roush 358ci NASCAR engine.

I like 4 strokes, but they do have their drawbacks, especially the F225. The F150 due to size and weight has, all but eliminated all of the old arguements. the 2 stroke guys are scrambling to come up with another reason that 4 strokes stink. You can make alot of arguements for a 200 or 250HPDI over a F225, but you are going to have a hard time arguing those same points for a 150HPDI over a F150!

William
1900CC Key West W/ 115 Yammie 4 stroke
Biggest boat that would fit in my garage!
Somethin-Fishey is offline  
Old 12-24-2003, 06:18 AM
  #18    
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Fuquay/Wilmington, NC
Posts: 1,603
Default Yamaha F150 vs. 150 HPDI??

I've heard all the arguments but most people who have had a 4 stroke say they'll never go back to a 2 stroke. And while it will take a while to prove the longvity thing, some of the older Honda 4 strokes are seeing over 5000 hours in commerical applications.
SeaPA is offline  
Old 12-24-2003, 06:27 AM
  #19    
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Manteo NC, Charlestown RI
Posts: 3,568
Default Yamaha F150 vs. 150 HPDI??

Funny thing is that 1-2 years ago, most were saying that the 4-strokes could never match the performance of a 2-stroke, DFI or Carbed. Well now Suzuki with the larger models and Yamaha with the new 150, have proven they can not only meet it but exceed it. The future is in 4-strokes....

202 Scout Sportfisher, fish out of Point Judith, RI
NewMoon is offline  
Old 12-24-2003, 06:39 AM
  #20    
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Mardela Springs, MD
Posts: 21
Default Yamaha F150 vs. 150 HPDI??

One more thing about the four stroke, albeit minor, due to the inline four cylinder it looks like it sets up taller. I fish shallow water with my motor trimmed up a lot and this may be in the way. Has anyone on the board used the 150 four yet that could offer an opinion? I know it's new but surely someone has one.

New Moon - I agree it looks good on paper, but it's still a first year design without much public trial. I'm not much of a pioneer when it comes to buying something so expensive. I agree my next motor will probably be a four stroke. Just want someone else to get the bugs out.

Jones Brothers Cape Fisherman 2000 LT
KJosenhans is offline  
 
 
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Etec 150 VS yamaha F150 summertime The Boating Forum 22 07-31-2007 08:32 AM
150 Yamaha HPDI v E-Tec 150? flying fish The Boating Forum 43 06-27-2006 09:34 PM
link to the test using the f150 vs. hpdi 150? high life The Boating Forum 3 03-23-2005 05:44 PM
Yamaha 150 four stroke versus 150 HPDI richardca99 The Boating Forum 7 11-22-2004 09:04 PM
yamaha 150 hpdi or 175 hpdi?? half-throttle The Boating Forum 5 07-07-2003 09:26 AM

 



©2009 TheHullTruth.com

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0