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I tell you what!!! I do not know what kind of entrance fee makes a person sail a 25ft boat into 8ft-10ft seas!!!! I think someone said with the occasional 15ft'er. Jesus Christ!!!! I would think a notched transom would be the least of your worries! I do not care how much you had invested in the fees, you would never drag me out into those conditiond without one hell of a fight!
A tragedy for the members and families as well. It makes me wonder about the effectiveness of emergency equipment. To be sure that a boat crew that fished tourney's this much had some good emer equipment,ie EPIRB, Ditch Bag, handheld VHF etc... Apparently the crew had time to send a hurried MayDay. We won't ever know what happened, but presumably they had time to grab the ditch bag (If they had one.) It does make one wonder. Was any of the wreckage and boat items ever found? I'm sure the courts are going to have a field day. Money smell is in the air.
I understand the common sense argument that it is the captain's fault. I also understand the legal argument that the tourny organizers are somewhat at fault. But I think that even from a common sense point of view, the tourny people by sending out a "weather boat", by providing for a "weather day" are saying to the field that they are going to decide if conditions are safe to fish. Otherwise, they would just say this is the date of the event, fish or don't fish, its up to you. It's a shame what happened and the fact that nothing has been found is troubling to us all, because I suspect that we all worry that something catastrophic and sudden could happen to us. Of course the captain is responsible for the saftey of his crew but think for a second if you were the organizer who made the decision not to cancel, when you found out these guys were missing would your reaction have been, "oh well they should have known better." or "oh my god, what have I done?"
NO.. my reaction would be one of sorrow but NOT one of responsibility.....
It has become TOO engrained in our society.. that as soon as something tragic happens... to find blame and fault with someone who has deep pockets.... ever wonder why your insurance rates keep just going on up....?????
There are two MAJOR problems I have with your anology is this:
1. If promotors of events are held resonsible for things like this (and this incudes ALL kinds of events..., bungy jumping.... whatever), then they would ALL get sued ANYTIME there was an idiot doing somthing stupid, because, "...if the promotor did hole the contest, theyt would not have died...."!!! WRONG!!! DEAD WRONG!!!
2. If the promotors had canceled the tourney, I bet they would be in court today for a lawsuit over poeple who own 40ft Hatterases/Vikings... who say they lost a ton of money, took day off, bought bait, paid a crew, fuel... and then the tourny was canceled. So how do they make the "right" decision?
Answer: The BOAT OWNER/CAPTIAN makes the right decision and is reposnible for his/her actions, PERIOD!! DONE!! Now close the thread!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
Bird, I think you are missing his point. I don't think anyone could argue that the final deciding factor lies with the captain. These days people are getting sued and losing over rediculous things. And if one of those captains wanted to sue over entry fees, I bet they could. Crazy world.
Theres probably a very good legal precedent for this with the disastrous Sydney to Hobart Yacht race a few years back where many of the yachts and sailors were lost in what basically turned into a hurricane.....
It's now the case that insurance for this race is almost impossible to get, ordinary boat insurance specifically EXCLUDES participants in that race (and others) etc.
I've seen footage from the rescue helo's, they litterally were plucking survivors from 100ft seas, the Navy choppers having to hover up and down in time to the waves to avoid going in...scary stuff.
One does wonder about the failure of safety gear to eleciti a rescue?...no epirb?...Mayday message seemingly ignored?...
Whilst I sympathise with the view that the Skipper was ultimately responsible - the reality in todays world will be, that organisers, the manufacturer, the weather people and anyone else with some insurance worth chasing will be asked to cough up in one way or another.
Why arent ALL boats "unsinkable" for want of a better word (I mean positive bouyancy when flooded), it's soooo hard to drown in a boat that still floats when swamped.
It' costs a little money - I bet it wont cost near as much as what this case will illicit in lawyers fees, and damages payouts etc..
Tis a sad ol day coz, many things have to go wrong for this sort of thing to happen..
1. Boat must be capable of sinking,
2. Safety gear must be missing / fail,
3. Decision to go out must be faulty,
4. Rescue attempt must fail,
5. Tourney Go ahead decision must be faulty,
6. "Something" must happen to the boat to cause it to founder in the first place,
7. Other boats must not have responded in a manner capable of effecting rescue
You get the idea - it takes a whole "string" of "bad luck" (bad decision making) events for the tragedy to unfold like this..
Soo - as an aid to increasing boater safety, how many on this board can honestly say that not ONE of the above "things" could happen to their vessel?
I mean - Birdys famed scout?...does it have positive bouyancy, the rest of you all have epirbs etc?...
I think it'd be interesting to see who here could tick every box of the questions to indicate it couldn't "possibly" happen to them?
I think it's very poor form for humanity if we don't all take the trouble to learn "something" worthwhile from this.
How many will go and get that missing piece of safety equipment for their boat TOMORROW as a result of this string?
You human nature tells us - "it will never happen to me".
Human nature and muther nature are sworn enemys..they seldom see eye to eye - & often it's mutha nature who wins.
Yes I wonder why it is still legal to make boats that don't float when swamped. I belive in the US the 20' mark is the cutoff. Anything 20' and above can sink to the very botton and it's Ok as far as the Coast Guard is concerned. Anything below that has to have some flotation, but it doesn't have to keep the gunwhales above water. I was buying a 14'er one time and at the end of the deal the owner told me that the boat had swamped 2 or 3 times on him. He then added that the boat had flotation and would *only* sink down about 10-15' so you could retrive it as he had done each time. He didn't see anything wrong with this...
Indeed a terrible tragety but just gotta voice a few thoughts on this- some already more elequently said by others.
Are we becomming a nation with two classess of people? - Lawyers and Victims.
What about personal responsibility? Can we really survive in an economy whereby 99 % of us produces mostly paperwork, and get by by suing each other for trivial bullshit, make money by advertising, buying and selling each other crap we don't need, inheriting it from our parents (the old fashioned way, or "stealing" it from stupider people (ie. stockbrokers, corporate executives, etc.)
Well enough of this - So very very Sorry for those poor people - but bottom line is I think we all have to be responsible for ourselves.
The problem with swamping is a boat ,even if it stays afloat, going "turtle". It's damned hard to hold on to the hulls bottom side in heavy seas. Add cold war and your in real trouble. Boston Whaler makes a 35' that is "unsinkable", but it also costs in the $300K range, I believe.
The other problem is that the good Lord did not make all people unsinkable.
Even if your boat swamps, capsizes, etc and floats... how the heck would you hold on in 8' seas? That's a lot of rockin'
Me? I stopped fishing tournaments years ago after crying about sitting in port after paying my entry fee. It's tough to get psyched up for a high paying tourney, prepare, travel, pay entry then sit at the dock and watch the big boys run out to compete for your entry fee dollars. I see the temptation, and it is hard to resist.
All the tournaments I fished in were always captains call. You either ran out and took your chances when the weather got rough, or sat on the dock waiting for the big boys to return for weigh in. It always killed me, because the bigger fish seem to hit in the roughest water.
That's one (of many) reasons that I will never, ever enter another fishing tournament again.
What a shame...
While the tourney organizer were "ethically" in the wrong for not calling off the event, the Captain is 100% responsible.
Let's say a tournement takes place where going out or coming in the inlet is treacherous. A boat sinks after it runs aground. POB drowned. Is the organizer liable? I don't think so. The captain had to know that the inlet was dangerous. It's the same as in this sad story. The captain HAD to know that the sea were nasty, yet he chose to still go out...
Cheers
SI
Wrong, that is why concert promotors put security staff next to scaffolding so people dont climb and get hurt, why hotels put enclosed balconies, etc. Would they be responsible if these guys were just out pleasure fishing?? Of course not. If you put on an event you better be thinking of the big picture, of all the possible liabilities. Sending tournament boats out in 7-10 foot seas is negligent. If the promoter had called me the morning before as his attorney I would have told him that the door would be wide open for litigation if somebody got hurt. And somebody did. Maybe a nice big fat verdict will make the promoters take notice..... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]
Bill D,
Its not a matter of a 300K boat. There were B31's & 26 Downeasters that reported they felt no danger in the 12's - 15's.
Theres 25 notches that WILL prove deadly trying to compete in those seas.
& thats what happened.
Wrong boat for a fishing torny. in seas that worked thier way uo to 15 as one headed out.
Go to discussion boards @ NOREAST.COM then " Offshore" for the input from the folk that were in the tourny that day. & a discription of thier boats.
Its a NOTCH lesson once again, Theyre the # 1 reason why people die " Boating " every year.
The limits get pushed of this design & a price is payed.
Its not that "inshore" boats dont/wontwork fine with these designs but if your Offshore when it very well might kick up to 12'15 especially while chunking for shark then dont go with a notch.
I dont understand how this can be debated?????
Alan, my reply was only in reference to comments about "unsinkable" boats. I don't disagree with you at all.
BTW- I'm running my 3rd Whaler and I'm damn sure not dumb enough to go out in those conditions. Even if it won't sink, it could easily turtle.
Just sold a sweet Whaler yesterday only a 15 sport but set up with a new yammie 70 that worked so well with this boat.
A great boat, looking for another Bay Whaler soon a Montauk this time.
