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Old 10-24-2007, 01:19 PM
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Default Larger Boats Ruinning Boating for the Rest of Us?

_The title to this thread is a little dramatic, but an article in the DC-area confirmed what I suspected: significant sectors of the boating industry appear to be pulling away from targeting the average (or even somewhat above-average) Joe in favor of catering only to the very wealthy. Perhaps power boating is destined to return to its status as exclusively a very wealthy person's game, with the remainder of us relegated to increasingly aging used vessels or new rowboats.

Probably not -- at least not completely -- but aside from the likelihood of at least some reduced availability of new "smaller" boats (under 30-feet, and especially under 25-feet), the trend towards larger boats might negatively impact many of us in other ways.

The first impact is the availability of slips. The article mentions one marina owner who is converting from 63 slips to 19 larger slips to accommodate yachts. In Annapolis, the availability of slips is already tight. A trend like this will make finding any slip, let alone one at anything near a sane rate -- even more difficult.

Second, the Severn River, where I boat, is now downright treacherous on weekends with all the 30, 40, 50-ft and larger boats barreling through at 20-plus knots. For a 20-something boat, this creates a miserable boating experience if not a dangerous situation. For someone like me, who recently downsized until the kids get a bit older and can appreciate cruises, the wakes make the water virtually off-limits much of the time. These wakes are also severely damaging the shoreline....the marshes/wetlands and small beaches along the Severn now have wave action that rivals the open Chesapeake.

I don't know what the solution is for this. I'm not a big fan of over-regulation, but I also believe that boats and their attendant impact cannot be allowed to increase unchecked indefinitely. Should marina owners be required to keep a certain percentage of their slips a certain size? Should speed limits in non-open waterways be more restrictive for vessels over a certain displacement? I'm curious about what the TF community thinks.

Oh...and here's the article:
__________________________________

Boat Show to Focus on Huge Yachts
October 24, 2007 - 11:56am

By BRIAN WITTE
Associated Press Writer

ANNAPOLIS, Md. (AP) - With demand for bigger yachts staying strong, people in the boating industry are working hard to keep up with ways to describe the increasingly larger boats.

Megayachts have been overtaken in size by superyachts. Now, gigayacht is a word popping up at boat shows. Some even joke about Trumpyachts.

"Sixty-foot is big," said Dee Newman, manager of two huge boat shows held recently in this sailing capital. "When you get to 80 and a 100 feet, then you're into a megayacht. Then you get a superyacht. Then, you keep on going."

The demand has stayed strong enough in recent years that an event billed as a first-of-its-kind show in the sailing-crazed Mid-Atlantic region is scheduled for early May as one of the first events at the new National Harbor in Washington, D.C.
"That'll be the first for this area by a long shot," said James Barthold, general manager of the Annapolis Boat Shows, which held two large shows this month, one for sail boats and another for power boats.

The Washington show, produced by United States Yacht Shows, will feature yachts ranging from 60 to 150 feet long.
"It's just the boat that people are asking for," Barthold said. "It's the boat that's selling."

With yachts of that size ranging in price from $500,000 to $2 million, people who can afford that much boat have been more insulated from a troubled housing market and other downturns in the economy, according to people in the boating industry. Newman said growth in larger yacht sales has been noticeable since about 1998.

The boats have taken on floating-condo-like size.

"You have to almost treat it like a vacation home," Barthold said. "And that's what a boat is. A boat is essentially a purchase in lieu of a vacation home ... That's the size boat you need to get the value out of it."
The increasing boat size is having an effect at marinas.

Gerald Herson, who has owned marinas in the Annapolis area for 30 years, has been working hard to adjust his Pleasure Cove Marina to fit the trend. His efforts recently brought him before Gov. Martin O'Malley, who is one of three members of the Maryland Board of Public Works, to request a wetlands license so he could reconfigure a 63-slip marina in Pasadena, Md., to a 19-slip marina _ to handle longer and wider boats.

Herson, whose request was approved so he could proceed with the construction in the water, also is adding new lifts at his marina, so boats up to 60-feet long can be raised out of the water and stored in a heated maintenance building. The idea is to better preserve the boats from the elements _ and make way for megayachts outside.

"There is less and less space for boats, because the boats themselves are getting larger," Herson said.
Michael Lecholop, vice president of sales for sail and motor boat manufacturer Beneteau, said the trend toward larger boats is continuing. Last year, he said, Beneteau introduced a new 46-foot yacht and a 49-footer, forecasting a sale for more than 100 boats for the year.

"We were scared to death," Lecholop said at the sail boat show in Annapolis, where more than 200 sail boats bobbed on floatable docks around him. "No manufacturer had ever sold a 100-plus boats 46 and larger, and we did it with no problem."
Lecholop said the company had a great year, and things are looking good for the future. At the Annapolis show, Lecholop said Beneteau sold 14 boats that are 40-feet long, costing more than $200,000, and three 32-footers at about $105,000 each.

"Bigger is better," Lecholop said. "Your homes are larger. Your cars are more expensive nowadays and larger. It's what they enjoy. They enjoy the space. They enjoy the amount of fuel and the amount of water it carries."
The smaller boats, however, are a tougher sell these days.

"If we get some consumer confidence back, the smaller end will come back, but it's the people who are more firm in their job positions, their careers" who are buying now, Lecholop said.

Ryan Fitchett, a regional sales manager for Viking Sport Cruisers, said the megayacht market "has been incredibly strong for the past couple of years," largely thanks to prosperous baby boomers.

"There's just more people out there with the wealth accumulated that now they're getting to an age where making an investment in a yacht _ whether it be for retirement or just to kind of relax and treat themselves for all their hard work _ they're getting to that point in their lives where it makes sense," Fitchett said.
___
http://www.usboat.com

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Old 10-24-2007, 01:23 PM
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Default RE: Larger Boats Ruinning Boating for the Rest of Us?

It's all Freebird's fault, him and his big boats [img]../images/emoticons/biggrin.gif[/img]
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Old 10-24-2007, 01:32 PM
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Default Re: Larger Boats Ruinning Boating for the Rest of Us?

Quote:
Should marina owners be required to keep a certain percentage of their slips a certain size? Should speed limits in non-open waterways be more restrictive for vessels over a certain displacement?
I don't believe the government could or should be telling a marina owner what size slips to provide. It's a business decision on the owner's part. A local marina here has a 35' minimum including transient slips. Of course, you can dock your 24' boat there, but you will pay for 35'. Or, you can take your business elsewhere.

If there's a market for smaller slips, someone will make them available.

Speed limits should be the same for all sizes and types of boats. Not only would different speed limits for different displacement boats be unfair, but they would be very difficult to police and enforce.

BTW: I used to boat on the Severn River from time to time when I lived in MD and it's hard to imagine anyone going very fast with all the "practice" sailboats circling around and back and forth near Annapolis.
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Old 10-24-2007, 01:42 PM
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Default RE: Larger Boats Ruinning Boating for the Rest of Us?

Thanks for the reply. The problem with the market meeting demand for smaller boats is that very little of the shoreline in this area qualifies for a marina (environmental regs -- which isn't a bad thing, plus most is already private residential). I don't blame marina owners....especially in this market, I'd be looking to the folks with the most solid wealth, but it is a concern when only the rich have reasonable access to a public resource (towards which billions of tax dollars are going to restore). Again, we're not nearly to that point yet, so maybe worrying about it is a bit premature.

As for speed limits, I'm not sure I see anything unfair, although I do see some enforcement diffiucties within a few feet of boat length on either side of the line that is drawn (i.e.- how is a cop sopposed to tell a 35 footer from a 36-footer?). But, different-sized vehicles on the road (say, cars versus trucks) often have to play by different rules, including speed limits. This is considered a common-sense safety regulation on land, so I'm unclear why the same logic couldn't apply on the water.

Of course, I'm still thinking this through, having just read the article. But I do think that the issues it raises, while not a forecast of doom, do raise issues worth thinking about now.
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Old 10-24-2007, 01:46 PM
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Default Re: Larger Boats Ruinning Boating for the Rest of Us?

I am glad I just moved to a water privilaged community with 3 marinas... (Too bad it is about a 5 year wait for a slip )
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Old 10-24-2007, 01:48 PM
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Default Re: Larger Boats Ruinning Boating for the Rest of Us?

Are you a communist or just like to complain about capitalism? Why should someone be forced to serve the lower end of the industry if it is not profit maximizing for him to do so? I am not someone in a 50+ ft boat, but you make it sound as if those people are evil. Why shouldn’t they have slips available to them if they are willing to pay the price? I am sure a marina operator will be happy for you to rent a bigger slip if you really want the luxury of keeping your boat on the water, but it will cost you. In any case, I really do not see much validity of your argument.
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Old 10-24-2007, 01:53 PM
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Default Re: Larger Boats Ruinning Boating for the Rest of Us?

I guess it depends on what vantage point you are looking from. To the gent on the bridge of his 60 + foot mega gig whateveryacht all those little 20 foot runabouts popping up on the radar are on par annoyance wise with a crab pot. Riding around on the Bay today I didn't notice any mega boats ruining my 17 foot based boating experience. Marina owners like Mr Herson are always looking for ways to maximize profits heck I remember when he put a dry stack directly in line with the water view from the Chesire crab.

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Old 10-24-2007, 02:03 PM
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Default Re: Larger Boats Ruinning Boating for the Rest of Us?

Like it not they have just as much right to own or operate the vessel of their choice as you do. If your vessel isn’t safe to operate under the prevailing conditions then you need to consider a larger vessel or limit your excursion to days when the conditions are within the limits of your vessel.

It seems rather selfish of you to want to limit peoples experiance based upon the short comings of others.
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Old 10-24-2007, 02:07 PM
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Default Re: Larger Boats Ruinning Boating for the Rest of Us?

goose, do you know Adam?
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Old 10-24-2007, 02:12 PM
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Default Re: Larger Boats Ruinning Boating for the Rest of Us?

Quote:
brisboats - 10/24/2007 3:53 PM
........... 60 + foot mega gig whateveryacht ...............
60'?

How about this one (Themis) at 156'?

http://www.trinityyachts.com/156themis.asp

The white one, not the photo at the top of the page.

We pass by it nearly every time we go out if it is at the marina. Usually we'll see the crew washing it down.

Fuel capacity is 18,750 gallons. How would you like to pay for that?
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Old 10-24-2007, 02:15 PM
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Default Re: Larger Boats Ruinning Boating for the Rest of Us?

Hey, where did you get that pic of my boat [img]../images/emoticons/biggrin.gif[/img]
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Old 10-24-2007, 02:20 PM
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Default Re: Larger Boats Ruinning Boating for the Rest of Us?

Quote:
dingbat - 10/24/2007 4:03 PM

Like it not they have just as much right to own or operate the vessel of their choice as you do. If your vessel isn’t safe to operate under the prevailing conditions then you need to consider a larger vessel or limit your excursion to days when the conditions are within the limits of your vessel.

It seems rather selfish of you to want to limit peoples experiance based upon the short comings of others.
Speed limits are often appropriate in congested or sensitive areas. There are also boating locations where there are limits on the size, horsepower, or motor type. I just don't believe it's advisable or practical to set different limits for different types or sizes of boats.
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Old 10-24-2007, 02:33 PM
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Default RE: Larger Boats Ruinning Boating for the Rest of Us?

For those that find this practice unfair, China might be a little too "progressive" for you lately, but I would definitely check into Cuba's immigration policies. Like these other guys have said, you're really asking the govt' to take a big ole' sh!t on capitalism and the idea of free markets.

It's probably not fair for the rich guys to have all of the big boats, fast cars, big houses, plastic wives with silicone tits, etc. but that is a side-effect of what this country was founded upon.

Pleasure boating is not covered by the Constitution. The Declaration of Indepencence did not include among the unalienable rights, "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of convenient access to water sports and a proper vessel in which to partake".

If you don't have sufficient access to the water, then make more money and buy yourself some access; or make the same amount of money, spend less on other things, and buy yourself some access.


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Old 10-24-2007, 02:39 PM
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Default Re: Larger Boats Ruinning Boating for the Rest of Us?

I can see a little of the point. Lets face it, there are lots of places full of boats that are not appropriate for the area. Why anyone would want an ocean capable yacht to sit in a marina on the Bay or even on the Potomac is beyond me, but there appear to be plenty of them out there. Even on mid-size lakes you see 30' cruisers where a 14' jon boat would be the norm.

As for the marina owners only wanting to rent large slips, if that is where they make their money and it lets them pay their taxes, I have nothing against it, but would be happier about it for the marinas that open their launch ramps to the public for a fee. The real danger to the average Joe boater comes from those A-hole towns that choose to condemn marinas and working waterfronts so their developer buddies can build expensive waterfront housing on the land. You can also toss in the towns and HOA's that force boat owners to keep little ones in their garage and bigger ones in storage instead of beside the house or in the back yard.

Mr. Average will almost certainly be a trailer boat owner. We (as in local, state, and federal govt) need to protect the remaining launch ramps and waterfront access and buy more waterfront land for boating/fishing use to keep him in the game.
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Old 10-24-2007, 02:39 PM
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Default Re: Larger Boats Ruinning Boating for the Rest of Us?

Quote:
dingbat - 10/24/2007 4:03 PM

Like it not they have just as much right to own or operate the vessel of their choice as you do. If your vessel isn’t safe to operate under the prevailing conditions then you need to consider a larger vessel or limit your excursion to days when the conditions are within the limits of your vessel.

It seems rather selfish of you to want to limit peoples experiance based upon the short comings of others.
Speed limits are often appropriate in congested or sensitive areas. There are also boating locations where there are limits on the size, horsepower, or motor type. I just don't believe it's advisable or practical to set different limits for different types or sizes of boats.
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Old 10-24-2007, 02:46 PM
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Default Re: Larger Boats Ruinning Boating for the Rest of Us?

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spearfish3 - 10/24/2007 1:48 PM

Are you a communist or just like to complain about capitalism? Why should someone be forced to serve the lower end of the industry if it is not profit maximizing for him to do so? I am not someone in a 50+ ft boat, but you make it sound as if those people are evil. Why shouldn’t they have slips available to them if they are willing to pay the price? I am sure a marina operator will be happy for you to rent a bigger slip if you really want the luxury of keeping your boat on the water, but it will cost you. In any case, I really do not see much validity of your argument.
Spearfish, a reading comprehension course will do wonders for you. Where did I say that someone should be forced to serve the lower end of the industry? Where did I even come close to saying that owners of large boats are evil? What argument did I advance? I simply teed-up issues for discussion, with the caveat that I'm not sure what, if any, solution is appropriate. Geez.

As for your capitalism quip, I've probably done more to advance free markets and competition just this past year than you have in your lifetime. You're a fan a laissez-faire capitalism...we get it. Good luck with that.

As for the non ad hominem part of your post, and for the other replies. Thanks. Interesting discussion.
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Old 10-24-2007, 03:03 PM
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Default Re: Larger Boats Ruinning Boating for the Rest of Us?

Having thought about this for a few more minutes, I'm more convinced, as others have said, that requiring marinas to serve a certain size boat is not practical and an unwise policy. If access to the water truly became restricted to the point that most citizens were effectively cut off from this public resource, then local governments could build marinas, or even acquire them through eminent domain. (The wisdom of that is also debatable, but we’re not there yet in any case.)

As for people being able to use whatever they want wherever they want, that’s a facially ridiculous argument. Of course I can’t own and drive an M1 tank down my street. It would ruin the roads, take up more than one lane, etc. The same is true with large boats. Is it any less selfish to run a boat that produced a tsunami wake in a small body of water than it is to expect such boats to be regulated in a manner that reflects the realities of how that water is used and the impact on the shoreline? Otherwise, you simply create an arms race where those with smaller boats can’t use this public resource, not due to any natural occurrence, but simply to accommodate those with larger toys.

The devil is in the details on this point, however. Where to draw the line is complicated and, in the end, may turn out to be impractical. A simpler alternative would be expanded 6 knot zones for all vessels in particularly sensitive areas. Of course, this then punishes those whose vessels may not be posing a problem at high speed.

I need to sign-off for the day…thanks for the discussion.
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Old 10-24-2007, 03:11 PM
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Default Re: Larger Boats Ruinning Boating for the Rest of Us?

Quote:
goose70 - 10/24/2007 5:03 PM

............ A simpler alternative would be expanded 6 knot zones for all vessels in particularly sensitive areas.
OK, now you've done it. Standby for six pages of rants about no-wake zones protecting the rich waterfront property owners.
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Old 10-24-2007, 03:28 PM
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Default RE: Larger Boats Ruinning Boating for the Rest of Us?

Jeff asks some interesting questions. I don’t think he’s advocating the government step in and dictate to marina owners or boat manufactures – he’s just asking for our perspectives. Nor do I see the big boats ruining the water for the rest of us “little guys”. I see two issues here.

1. The future direction of the boating industry. Boating is a cyclical industry and I think pretty much everyone knows that the boating industry is in tough shape right now. Sales of new and used boats are down all over. There are pockets of growth and that is in the “upper end” boats, i.e. the larger, high-quality boats. So obviously that’s where companies are going to put their manufacturing efforts (if they can). The senior manager at Beneteau summed it up nicely.

2. Availability of marinas, boat ramps, and waterway usage. This is an issue everywhere. Development and environmental restrictions has placed waterfront property at a premium. Again, property owners generally want to maximize their revenue opportunity, so if they can get more $$ by limiting their slips to 30’ and over, so be it. Should state and local governments mandate that they keep “X number” of slips for the “under 30’ club”?, -- No.

Here in Florida, economic realities are coming into play now (I’m guessing we’re not alone). More than a few “grandiose” marina/condo projects here on the west coast are now officially dead or on life support. This will level things out somewhat as developers/owners have to adjust and realize that the population of folks willing to spend $500K-$1M on a condo plus $200K on a slip/storage spot is not unlimited. The downside is that here in Tampa, we've lost two marinas now for the last two years (they're just graded bare ground now).

Having said that, there are things that state and local government do:

1. Develop integrate public boating programs that combine adequate boat ramps with public marina space. It’ll never be perfect, but improvement can be made. Local government just has to stop being greedy. Here in FL, our county commissioners usually see “privatizing” and unlimited development = increased tax revenue for their pet projects.

2. Traffic on the waterways. We license automobile drivers but not boat captains – that’s got to change. We don’t (legally) allow guys to drive large trucks or high performance cars at 100+ mph on secondary roads – why let the captain of a 45 Cabo/Bert/Viking cruise the restricted channel of the ICW at 30 or 40mph? That’s not even talking about the “go-fast” boats that run much faster. That goes for other restricted waterways – we just have to get realistic and definitely more considerate!

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Old 10-24-2007, 03:29 PM
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Default RE: Larger Boats Ruinning Boating for the Rest of Us?

If I owned a multimillion dollar marina and could make 2, 3 or 4 times more money (rent, electricity, fuel, provisions, etc) per linear foot of dock renting the space to a yacht instead of 25 ft center console.......I would do just that.
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