Ethanol and poly fuel tanks - The Hull Truth

Mud Runner · 09-20-2007, 11:32 PM

I recently got a call from someone who rented one of our skiffs because he couldn't start the engine. I took a spare tank (6 gal Tempo) connected it and all was well. When I got the tank back to the shop, I found that the pickup tubehad dropped off. This is not the first tank to have this happen, I've either found it dropped off (swelled)or split and dropped off. It's been too many. We also have boats with built in poly tanks so I was concerned. I posted the question on another boat website to the moderator who asked about it to the boat manufacturer. They in turned asked Moeller who makes alot of boat fuel tanks. The boat name has been left off because what's important is the tank and ethanol. Below is the reply from Moeller. Hope this helps people to recognize or avoid problems with these tanks. Sorry for the long post. Don't shoot the messenger.

"Are you aware ifthefuel tanks and parts of the fuel tanks can and will withstand the use of E-10 ethanol fuel?"

Answer:
The Energy Policy Act of 2005 requires ethanol production to nearly double in the US by 2012. The EPA, which is responsible for setting Federal Guidelines that regulate fuel content, is allowing a 10% ethanol and gasoline blend for common engine use: percentages higher than E-10 are currently prohibited. The potential effects of E-10 and E-85 fuels on existing marketed products remain one to be wary of:

1. Ethanol is hygroscopic, mixing more easily with water than gasoline.
Fuel Tank Shell will not be impacted.
May lead to serious damage to some fuel system components- regular
maintenance recommended.
2. Ethanol increases fuel electrical conductivity.
Promotes metal corrosion of system components
Most of the "molded in inserts" are encapsulated thus a non-issue.
We are waiting to hear back from our sending unit companies to validate their senders are E-10 compatible.
3. Ethanol blends, such as E-10 affect the integrity of some gaskets and other non-metal materials.
Can cause common materials to swell in excess of 35% and shrink by 6%.
Already working on improving our pick-up tube material to provide
greater compatibility with blends.

With this being indicated fuel systems going forward will need Water separation filters, which Moeller Marine can provide. This will reduce and minimize Ethanol related issues."

StingerII · 09-21-2007, 02:47 AM

Yeah and it's all so the subsidised farmers get a even fatter wallet... I just love when they pander on informercials about this "green" fuel.. Green fuel? Please..

Another fine job from our current office holder.

CaptH · 09-21-2007, 08:07 AM

See this site below for an interesting read about how much energy is wasted to produce ethanol..

http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol.htm

Mud Runner · 09-21-2007, 08:22 AM

I didn't post this thread as an Ethanol bashing thread. I posted it to make boaters aware of the potential problems they may incur. I can only imagine the scenario of going offshore only to become disabled. It's a scenario that hopefully can be avoided with some vigilance. It will mean checking certain things on a regular basis or simply by adding a hose clamp to the pickup. When the petroleum industry got rid of lead people screamed but it still did no good because we stuck with lead-free. Nuff said.

theoldwizard · 09-21-2007, 09:50 AM

This topic has been discussed in other threads. E10 has been in the Midwest for several years and MI, WI and MN have some of the highest number of boat registrations in the country.

The interesting thing in your post was that the pickup tube came off. No damage to the actual tank itself ! Some (especially older) "rubber" parts don't "like" E10 and will react badly.

E10 does a good job of cleaning the gunk out your tank so I recommend carrying an extra fuel filter (or 2) as well as the tools and know how to change it !

grassguysc · 09-21-2007, 09:51 AM

I have to stick up for the farmers on this. $4 a bushel corn sounds like it could make somebody rich, and it does, but generaly the farmer is not the beneficiary. If you have paid attention to the stocks of major fertilizer companies you'll note they are doing even better than the oil industry that everyone likes to complain about. I don't need to tell you what desiel is doing, but the biggest production cost increase in many instances is the land it self. Nobody cared ten years ago when family farms were being sold or forclosed on, but its coming back to bite you in the a$$ now. In the midwest corn country vast tracks of land are owned by banks or investor and rented back to the families that once owned them. Now with the price of corn you get bidding wars for the rent each year. The land owner gets rich the farmer stays poor. If you want to bitch about farmers, thats fine. Just don't do it with your mouth full.

StingerII · 09-21-2007, 12:33 PM

Grassguy,

I didn't do it with my mouth full of corn... A lot of the local farmers around here were asking for $7.00 to $9.00 a dozen for Corn this summer. (We just had a major ethanol refinary go in..) I basically told them all to choke on it... And walked away.

Boatdood · 09-21-2007, 09:06 PM

What I'm surprised that Moeller didn't mention is that ethanol in gasoline is not a new thing. It's been around since the mid 70's. Most of the gaskets and fuel lines that can be affected have been addressed years ago. What is new is the amount of ethanol that is being used in the fuel blend. Typically we have something in the 10 percent range, which is perfectly acceptable in most cases. Ethanol has been used as a substitute for lead quite successfully since lead was eliminated for environmental reasons. The problems start when the percentage of ethanol exceeds what the engine and fuel system manufacturers have adjusted for to this point.

I am fully in support of alternative fuels. We have a serious energy issue in this country and worldwide. I do not think that ethanol is the answer though. Maybe corn farmers need to install windmill farms instead, or plant fields of solar panels. I'd support federal subsidies of something like that. We burn an incredible amount of oil every day to produce electricity. We need to save that oil to produce gasoline for our boats. I don't have a long enough drop cord for an electric boat.

sickcat · 09-22-2007, 02:07 AM

"Ethanol has been used as a substitute for lead quite successfully since lead was eliminated for environmental reasons."

Would beg to differ Tom. Ethanol is not a substitute for lead. Lead was removed due to its own toxicity. The main fix for its removal from fuel is harder valve seats. Ethanol and other oxygenates like MTBE are added to increase the combustion of the gasoline in order to lower emissions of things like carbon monoxide, particulate matter and oxides of nitrogen. E85 is also touted as a replacement for fossil fuel although I agree with the previous posters who mentioned its shortcomings as such.

Boatdood · 09-22-2007, 08:24 AM

Sickcat folks beg to differ from me quite often. No problem.

Ethanol alcohol is less apt to explode from the heat of compression than gasoline, therefore its addition to the blend lends the same effect to a different degree that lead did. Lead did have some affect on valves but its main purpose was as an anti-knock compound.

59022 · 09-22-2007, 10:18 AM

I'm transporting twenty thousand barrels of ethanol from Brasil to the West Coast. It's made from sugar cane and only needs the fermentation process to convert to ethanol. Unfortunately, the cost of making ethanol from other than sugar cane, needs an additional process, which in turn drives the cost of manufacture higher.

Plastic fuel containers aren't a problem, just the tubing used to make connections. It's not like the mfgrs didn't know about this, it's that they wanted a cheaper product - and now they see the results. E10 has been around since the mid-70's and while automobile carbs weren't the injectors of today, there was hardly any flow problems, gasket or tubing failures.

ultrasonic · 09-26-2007, 10:18 PM

Gasoline weeps through plastic tanks that are in boats today.Ethanol is comprised of a molecular structure that is much smaller than gasoline. Until this mess is sorted out; avoid using e-5 /10/15/85

In addition to the fugitive emissions, this stuff will trash your engines and fuel systems.

The marine industry is not ready for ethanol today.