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Old 07-08-2007, 03:14 AM
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Default Scout 280 Diesel vs Twin OB's

After spending the past few weeks looking at and comparing various 23-28 ft Walkarounds, today I saw a Scout 280 Vintage with the Cummins 300 HP diesel /Mercruiser set up... While the layout and finish where impressive enough, what really staggard me was the performance stats compared to similiar twin ob models.. With fuel consumption at a 30ish mph cruise listed at 7.7 GPH compared to 15-19 for boats like the Aquasport 275 Explorer and the Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin 200 4-strokes, it makes me wonder whats the catch? As this will be my first "big" boat, I would appreciate the opinions of the more experienced as to the pros/cons of a Diesel I/O vs. twin OBs..I understand that time to plane would be considerably slower and there is a bit of sacrifice of top speed, but these factors seem to me a small price to pay for this kind of economy.
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Old 07-08-2007, 10:42 AM
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Default Re: Scout 280 Diesel vs Twin OB's

It is also an inboard/outboard and you lose quite a bit of cockpit space and you still have to fight fish around a prop, but not around the motor head, but you can't run back and forth in the cockpit either. No real winner per se, just different. I would imagine the diesel costs a bit more initially, but not sure.
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Old 07-08-2007, 10:55 AM
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Default RE: Scout 280 Diesel vs Twin OB's

If you are having to buy your fuel at a marina be aware......Marina Gas= $4.00/gal. ...........Marina Diesel = $3.00/gal.

Deisels produce a huge amount of torque at low rpm's. And torque is what its all about when it comes to pushing a boat. And low rpm's is what its all about when saving on fuel.
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Old 07-09-2007, 09:59 AM
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Default Re: Scout 280 Diesel vs Twin OB's

Some things to consider.... will you be using the boat offshore?
Do you want twin motors for security or will you be comfortable with one motor... also recognize that you have a lower unit always in the water.... the deisel will run a long time, the lower unit will be the weak link.
I also dont think you will see a 30mph cruise with the diesel on that boat, you would with twin 200's. Just think, HP is HP... doesnt matter wether it is produced from a diesel, gas motor, or actually hours..... at cruise you are comparing 300hp to 400hp
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Old 07-09-2007, 12:06 PM
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Default Re: Scout 280 Diesel vs Twin OB's

With regard to cruising speed, you are also comparing the drag of one lower unit in the water versus two. I think a 30 mph cruise, +/- a few mph, is very attainable with this setup.
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Old 07-09-2007, 12:13 PM
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Default Re: Scout 280 Diesel vs Twin OB's

Does Scout still make this model? What year is the one you are looking at and what is the price?
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Old 07-09-2007, 01:40 PM
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Default RE: Scout 280 Diesel vs Twin OB's

Thanks for the responses guys.. you have all made good points..As far as the motor cover in the cockpit and other I/O issues, while I have never owned a boat in this class, I did have an 18' Grumman Superfisherman with a 120 hp Mercruiser I/O for about 15 years, so I am familiar with them.. As I am looking for a boat that combines fishability with some creature comforts for the family, I kinda like the cushy seat on the motor cover set up on the Vintage. As the cushions are removable, I could always take them off when fishing allowing an angler to stand on it to fight a fish/clear the prop.. As for as the outdrive always being in the water, my plan is to rack store it , so I'm hoping with proper wash downs that won't be too much of an issue..People always warned me of pitfalls with outdrives, but in the 15 years I had one, I never had an issue..never even had to replace the boot..of course that boat was used 99% in freshwater.. Tim, you bring up one of my major concerns..to answer your ?...I plan to fish out of Sandy Hook, NJ and stick to inshore stuff untill I gain more experience and confidence. But then I would like to venture offshore when conditions permit... so the single engine does give me pause..My buddy made the point that one motor and a Sea-Tow membership is alot cheaper than 2 motors..but I would like to hear the opinions of experienced offshore boaters on this issue.. I would also welcome any feedback from Scout owners as to their experiences with this brand, and especially anyone with experince with the Vintage or 280 Abaco..They seem pretty hi quality and most of what I hear about them is good...but all opinions are welcomed
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Old 07-09-2007, 01:49 PM
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Default RE: Scout 280 Diesel vs Twin OB's

Quote:
Provie63 - 7/9/2007 12:40 PM

I plan to fish out of Sandy Hook, NJ and stick to inshore stuff untill I gain more experience and confidence. But then I would like to venture offshore when conditions permit... so the single engine does give me pause..My buddy made the point that one motor and a Sea-Tow membership is alot cheaper than 2 motors..but I would like to hear the opinions of experienced offshore boaters on this issue..
How far offshore?

I'm comfortable with a single within radio distance of shore (15-20 miles?). When the distance stretches to 30-40+ miles on a consistant basis, I prefer twins.

Opinions will vary. Try a forum search for "single vs twins".
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Old 07-09-2007, 02:15 PM
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Default Re: Scout 280 Diesel vs Twin OB's

You have covered most if not all the bases. You said "I plan to fish out of Sandy Hook, NJ and stick to inshore stuff untill I gain more experience and confidence. But then I would like to venture offshore when conditions permit..." It seems to me you are better server with a well maintained single screw engine and if it doesnt fit your needs in a few years you can allways get into something with twins. I know many people who venture offshore in single engine boats, I have in the past. Just cause you have twins doesnt mean you can get back every time. There are many factors. One thing to consider is whether you can find rack space for a 28' boat in Raritan Bay. I only know of a handful of places that do rack storage and I am not sure they will do it for a 28' boat, other than for winter storage.

Good luck what ever your decision. Sounds like a great boat.

Brett
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Old 07-09-2007, 02:53 PM
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Default Re: Scout 280 Diesel vs Twin OB's

Quote:
redseacraft - 7/9/2007 11:13 AM

Does Scout still make this model? What year is the one you are looking at and what is the price?
Scout's website shows it as a current model .. The one I saw over the weekend was a loaded (no electronics) leftover '06 ..sticker price in the low 140's and I got a hit on a dealer in Maryland with new "07 in stock...
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Old 07-09-2007, 05:23 PM
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Default Re: Scout 280 Diesel vs Twin OB's

How far offshore in Jersey?
I fish out of CT and looked hard at some of the single engine diesels.... if you are going to the Hudson, I would want twin engines. Sea tow will not come get you, and while the diesel may run forever, a bad starter or alternator will ruin your day. Up to 25 miles, then the diesel is a great option!!!
For me, it was about security. I would be a nervous reck with only one motor, but that is just me. Plenty people do it with a well maintaned single diesel.
Keep in mind, you may say "I am only going 25 miles offshore", but once you start, it is addicting and it may not be long until your chasing tuna, wahoo, mahi, ect 50 to 100 miles from land!!!

Good luck!

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Old 07-09-2007, 06:49 PM
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Default Re: Scout 280 Diesel vs Twin OB's

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Fishing FINattic - 7/9/2007 8:59 AM
I also dont think you will see a 30mph cruise with the diesel on that boat, you would with twin 200's. Just think, HP is HP... doesnt matter wether it is produced from a diesel, gas motor, or actually hours..... at cruise you are comparing 300hp to 400hp
Tim
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Hp isn't horsepower when it is gas versus diesel. The torque means you will be turning a prop with more pitch than a lower torque gas motor and the speed numbers sound about right. My 29 seavee with a jackshaft and an outdrive will cruise at 28 knots in any trim on a 260 hp diesel and in less than 3 ft seas or without a ton of trim tab it is 29-30 knots.
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Old 07-09-2007, 09:13 PM
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Default Re: Scout 280 Diesel vs Twin OB's

I don't know the full story, but I believe that there have been some problems with the earlier Merc stern-legs when matched to the 300hp+ diesels. I believe that the 300hp version of that engine was superceeded a while ago, so I assume the one you are looking at probably either has one of the earlier legs, or is 'old' stock. My understanding is that the newer 'X' series legs are specifically configured to handle the higher torque engines, and this is what you would want on the boat. If you do a bit of research you will find that there is an 'after-market drive cooler' that some people recomend for the Merc drives when fitted to diesels. It is a cheap and simple add-on, so would be worth investigating. On the fuel economy side, the 7.7 gph sounds a little optimistic, and I would have thought somewhere between 8.5 & 10 gph would be more likely at full cruising revs on a 'normally' loaded boat.
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Old 07-10-2007, 12:01 AM
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Default Re: Scout 280 Diesel vs Twin OB's

My last two boats have been Scouts and I have been very happy with both of them. I was once wearing some Scout swag on LI and a dude asked me if I had a Scout. We got to talking and he had a Vintage 28. This is a fairly weak endorsement but he was gushing over the boat. I think the single vs twins in the NE canyons is a concern but a lot of people do it with a single.

Anyone know how far Sea Tow will come and get you....someone mentioned that they won't come and get you in the canyons. What is their cut-off?

Jp.
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Old 07-10-2007, 01:37 AM
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Default Re: Scout 280 Diesel vs Twin OB's

A few thoughts: The 7.7 gal per hour shows that you are developing about 150- 160 hp--I don't think that 160 hp will give you much speed--maybe on a plane?? at 300 hp you would be buring 15 gallons an hour. You might use all of the HP to get on a plane and just maintain it with 160 hp...but up and down, will cost more fuel. Looking at the power curves, the torque is high at 1800 RPM (where you might be with 8 gallons an hour, and it probably would keep the boat on a plane). Boating life review shows 40 mph at WOT (light boat)--but said 3800 RPM was what they required. The curves on the 300 hp 5.9 Mercruiser/ Cummins shows 2600 redline, so they must be using the E.S. 4.2 liter 300 hp Cummins which does turn 3800 red line--and seems to use slightly less fuel. (13 gallons an hour at WOT). In the new engine, peak toque is also at a speed about 8 gallons an hour, so it is possiable that the boat stays on a plane at that consumption, properly trimmed.

I would want to sea trial the boat with a full load, and see how it performs. I would also like to know more about this new smaller engine--that is squeezing a lot of hp out of 4.2 liter diesel. 4.2 liters is 254 cubic inches, so you are over one hp per cubic inch and I would expect decreased life span from an engine pushed this hard.
The boat weighs nearly 10,000 lbs dry, so it is not a light boat.

Although I love diesels and have crossed oceans with single diesels, there are still problems with them and you have to have the spares and be able to work on them--plus clean fuel and a good filtration system system are imparative. I would also look at room to work on the engine--and how it impacts the cockpit and fishing space. I'll admit that this looks like a very nice boat. I am not a fan of I/O's--but as long as you maintain it well, and dry store it will be OK. (I had a bad experience with a Bravo III unit, 1" stick caught between the prop blades caused damage to lower unit). As for a back up--I would take a gas kicker and enough fuel to get back if necessary--at least to maintain steerage and get out of trouble. I just don't like to be dependant or any towing unit to save me....A 15 hp LS 4 stroke would give 7 knots at a gallon of fuel an hour--so 50 miles or 10 gallons would be plenty of reserve to get home, if you had to, plus use for trolling when you needed. I won't go out in a single engine boat without some back up engine or other propulsion (sails, oars etc).

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Old 07-10-2007, 05:42 AM
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Default Re: Scout 280 Diesel vs Twin OB's

The CMD 4.2l engine has been around for quite a while. I believe it is in fact manufcatured by VMC (Italy?) and CMD do their stuff to it and sell it. I think MTU do the same thing to the same engine. I have a feeling in fact that this is the same engine that came out as a ~160hp BMW marine engine many years ago. Someone here may know if this is correct.

CMD have just recently released a Common Rail Electronic variant of this engine and you can now get in ratings from 200hp to 350hp in either mechanical or electronic injection. I don't believe that the 300hp mechanical version is still produced, as this was upgraded to 320hp a while ago. I have a 10yr old 220hp mechanical version in one of my fleet boats and quite like it. As with any older engine we have had to do a few maintenance repairs, but overall it has been better than some of the Volvo's we have in some other boats.
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Old 07-10-2007, 11:55 AM
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Default Re: Scout 280 Diesel vs Twin OB's

Aliboy, you have me intrigued as to what exact model engine this is... When at the dealer over the weekend I saw some literature that refers to the motor as 320 HP and some that referred to 300 HP.. I will check today to find out which it is...
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Old 07-10-2007, 12:23 PM
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Default RE: Scout 280 Diesel vs Twin OB's

I assume the diesel is someting like 15-20K more than the outboards.
Do you think your going to burn 20K in fuel? If so god bless.
Just something else to consider. I get approx 12-13 gph @ cruise in my scout 262 w/ twin f150's.
I do offshore and the twins give me a warm fuzzy feeling when I'm way out. And no, sea tow won't come and get you. It becomes a salvage operation at that point. I don't remember exactly but I asked Sea tow and they said something like 10-15 miles offshore max.

Also remember, diesels do not like to sit. you have to use them.
Read David pascoes' article on diesels lots of good info.
Good luck in you boat hunt!

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Old 07-10-2007, 12:39 PM
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Default RE: Scout 280 Diesel vs Twin OB's

I agree with Aliboy.

How will the outdrive handle the torque "long term" ?

There are not many setups like that !

Diesels are primarily inboards or jackshafts.

OB's will be cheaper to operate /maintain long term.



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Old 07-10-2007, 04:31 PM
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Default Re: Scout 280 Diesel vs Twin OB's

Thanks again to everyone for all the input!! ..Marsea you make great points, however I don't think the price difference for the diesel will be nearly that great for in-stock boats from the quotes I have been getting due to the fact that while diesels are more costly, there is only one as opposed to twins....I actually looked at a yellow 262 Abaco w/150's first and it was drop-dead gorgeous! The cabin was sweeter than any walk in this size range I looked at..My only problem with it was I was a bit disappointed in the size of the cockpit.. The 280 with its extra length and 9'6" beam has the big dance floor I'm looking for with a similarly luxurious cabin.. But moving up to the 28 means I would need to run at least twin 200's but more likely 225's or 250's as I've seen on most 280's .. so that is what I am using to compare fuel costs..Whatever the case I'm listing hard towards a Scout and the trigger finger is gettin itchy
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