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Blackfin Surveyed. Surveyor says the deck may be wet? Trust the meter or hammer?
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Blackfin Surveyed. Surveyor says the deck may be wet? Trust the meter or hammer?
Well, I had the survey done on my prospective new boat yesterday and much of what I found out was not a surprise. The boat is going to be a project and I expect to have to fix quite a bit to get it into shape.
The hull was sound, engines are rusty, bildge is a mess, exhaust elbow is cracked, shifter cable is shot...electronics are new, enclosure is new, one engine recently rebuilt, new battery charger, runs well, etc. HOWEVER, there are a few items that I was not expecting (of course).
First, the shafts have some pitting and the surveyor is recommending replacing them. Whe the boat was sold in 2003, there were no zinks installed and there was already pitting then. The current owner had zinks installed and it seems the deterioraton has stopped. I will post pictures of the pitting later today but how bad does the pitting have to be to worry? If a shaft breaks, will it cause the boat to sink? I will probably replace the shafts but need to know if it should be done now or is it ok to wait? A year or two or even until they fail?
Second, and more pressing is the moisture metter readings. The suveyor hammer tested the entire boat and used a moisture meter on the deck and everything above the waterline. The meter showed consistent wet readings on all of the decking on the foredeck. All of the area that has non-skid showed consistent wet readings. The raised portion of the deck above the cabin read dry. Hammer tests indicated no delamination anywhere. The readings didn't make any sense! The surveyor was torn by the findings and suggested removing a core sample from the deck to be sure. I don't know if the owner will let me do the test yet but I was looking for opinions here first.
Does it make sense that the deck would all be wet with no delamination? What could be different in the construction that could cause false readings? Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Re: Blackfin Surveyed. Surveyor says the deck may be wet? Trust the meter or hammer?
Yes, you can have we coring without delamination. It depends on the coring material. If it is Baltec, as I suspect, the lamination will hold pretty well until the baltec material itself begins to rot from the inside out. Your surveyor is right, you need to do a core sample to determine what the problem is as well as the extent. If the owner is one that cares for his boat and wants to sell it to you or anyone else, he should be in favor of finding out the truth.
Re: Blackfin Surveyed. Surveyor says the deck may be wet? Trust the meter or hammer?
also if your in cold weather meters and even a hammer will not differentiate between frozen water and solid fiberglass. Basically the meter doesn't work on frozen water in the hull or decks and the hammer will sound fine too because it is solid ice... So if your in cold weather and he found water most likely it is worse then he thinks it is
Re: Blackfin Surveyed. Surveyor says the deck may be wet? Trust the meter or hammer?
The hammer is open to interpretation by ear, the meter won't discriminate. I have never tried a meter on a frozen surface so I can't speak to that part......
Re: Blackfin Surveyed. Surveyor says the deck may be wet? Trust the meter or hammer?
Wetness & delam are different. Although with wetness, delam probably won't be far behind.
I guess it all depends on how much of a project you're looking for, and how good of a deal the boat is.
If the shaft breaks between the stuffing box & coupling, and is able to fall completely out, it most likely will sink the boat, and quickly.
RE: Blackfin Surveyed. Surveyor says the deck may be wet? Trust the meter or hammer?
It was quite warm in Charleston yesterday so I don't think freezing was the problem. Does it make sense that the deck would be uniformly wet with no other signs of intrusion?
I figured as much about the shafts. I should have pictures to post in a little while.
Re: Blackfin Surveyed. Surveyor says the deck may be wet? Trust the meter or hammer?
one day that is warm is or could be why he shows some moisture but like an Ice cube just because it is warm it will not melt right away... The meter doesn't know if a solid surface or ice was speaking about it with a buddy of mine who is a surveyor and was complaing because he has a survey to do on saturday and is worried about the weather because it has been below freezing and not sure if he would be able to detect moisture
RE: Blackfin Surveyed. Surveyor says the deck may be wet? Trust the meter or hammer?
What size Blackfin are you buying?? FB or Combi...not really relevant, but just curious. GREAT boats. I have a 31 NorthCoast which is the same thing as the 31 Combi.
__________________ "Land of the free, because of the Brave"
Re: Blackfin Surveyed. Surveyor says the deck may be wet? Trust the meter or hammer?
Tough call especially when get the mind set to go forward. The shafts shouldn't be too bad or $$$ to replace. The wet deck I would be very concerned with. Iwould want a core sample and if one comes back wet, I would want a few more from other areas to determine the extent. If it is wet over a large section unless you want a BIG$$$ project I would steer clear or at least find out the cost to have it all repaired/replaced which I would assume is big $$$.
Also if are financing and for insurance issues I would want to know if the bank and/or insurance comp would consider the deck problem a structural issue and affect either the loan or the policy. Depending on value most banks and insurance companies will require to see a copy of the survey.
Re: Blackfin Surveyed. Surveyor says the deck may be wet? Trust the meter or hammer?
It is pretty rare to have a moisture meter come up showing "wet" everywhere with no visible signs of bulging, soft spots etc. How could water have soaked through the whole core without some visible weakeneing, bulging etc? I am betting the moisture meter or the operator is wrong. Even on a terribly water logged transom, deck etc the whole area doesn't show up wet even with Baltek coring which is nothing more than end grain balsa, perhaps the most suspect core for "wicking" water in large areas.
Is there anything that can be looked at, maybe remove a hatch or something to look at the core? Taking a core sample in this case seems like a wild goose chase to me.
Re: Blackfin Surveyed. Surveyor says the deck may be wet? Trust the meter or hammer?
I would tell your surveyor to re-look his statement. Ask him if he has ever seen a 100% wet deck on any boat??? There have been more errors made with moisture meters than pin point success stories.
Re: Blackfin Surveyed. Surveyor says the deck may be wet? Trust the meter or hammer?
the meter does not lie. You can have moisture and wet balsa and not have anything visually wrong- yet.
You can take a core sample or investigate without hurting anything.
Water travels through the kerfs in the balsa and over time can totally saturate all the core, coming in from railings, cleats, pulpits, hawse pipes, etc... The raised portion may not be showing moisture because it is seperated from the rest of the deck and probably has nothing screwed to it that would allow water to enter.
this is a problem not only for older boats- but MANY new boats as well.
Re: Blackfin Surveyed. Surveyor says the deck may be wet? Trust the meter or hammer?
are you sure you are quoting the right info?
from that site:
"Uneven Surfaces
One might think that capacitance meters would read poorly on rough uneven surfaces like the insides of hulls and non skid decks. In fact, the meter reads remarkable well on moderately rough surfaces. Even so, one should try to obtain the smoothest surface possible.
also where in that article does it say it is unlikely to migrate very far? It does state if its vacuumed bagged it wont travel far, but VERY few boats are laid up that way.
I can tell you first hand that water entering balsa core never has a happy ending, I have dozens and dozens of pictures to show this, heck we make a living on this and its the reason people have to cut thier decks up when the boat gets old to make the decks solid again.
Re: Blackfin Surveyed. Surveyor says the deck may be wet? Trust the meter or hammer?
Meter=Vodoo. Burn some candles, spread some "Keep away powder" on the deck. Get a model of the boat and turn it upside down so it will dry out. Any soft spots? Circular shaped spider fractures in gell coat. Funky smell inside of cabin. Weepage at fittings. Before you cut any thing, remove a fastner from inside some where and see if any moisture comes out.
Re: Blackfin Surveyed. Surveyor says the deck may be wet? Trust the meter or hammer?
these areas had nothing mounted close to them, the moisture travelled along the kerfs and did its thing.
this picture shows how it can start to travel- look at the water travelling- this boat was 2 years old at the time of this picture.
And for those that say you can rely on the fiberglass skin by itself- you tell me if you would trust being out on your 40+ yacht with that thin skin as your means of support
this boat was skinned because "a 2 year old boat cant possibly trigger the moisture meter- must be a mistake", I guess the water that is coming out of it like a faucet is imaginary
RE: Blackfin Surveyed. Surveyor says the deck may be wet? Trust the meter or hammer?
Just to clarify, moisture meters will lie. They are not detecting moisture they are reading a materials ability or lack there of to carry an electrical current. Fiberglass and most dry coring are great insulators. Some bottom paint and some resins are actually fairly good conductors. Pass a meter over a perfectly dry boat that has any ferrous material in the bottom paint and the meter will be pegged on high moisture. Of course this is not the case on the deck but there are other factors, and of course it may very well have a true high moisture content. One thought, if their is any dew or trace moisture in the valleys of the non skid this would give a very bad false high. I have also seen boats with high moisture and no delimitation as well as boats with delimitation and a wet core that read low on a moisture meter. I guess what I am saying is back up all your initial findings with another test and try to prove your findings false to be sure you have come to the correct conclusion. I have a great article on how moisture meters work, I will try to find it. Good luck.
Oh, I wouldn't chance those shafts if they have visible pitting. Chances are the natural grain in the shaft that makes it strong has been compromised from years of electrolysis and as mentioned already it is possible for a busted shaft to sink a boat.
__________________ Adam
BLM yacht Sales
2007 BHB 21,Honda 200
Blackfin Surveyed. Surveyor says the deck may be wet? Trust the meter or hammer? 
