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Random Quote: BOAT NAKED, SHOW OFF YOUR DINGHY !!!!
I have to agree that the re-sale of Yamaha's is good. I was just at Bluewater yesterday making arrangements to purchase my third Bluewater. I was tempted by the Evinrudes but have shyed away. I will probably go with the 200 HPDI's again. They were proven reliable on my last boat. The biggest decision now is to get the 2003 with the 4 years of warranty or just wait for the 2004's to arrive next week.
i was talking to a dealer yesterday who sells yam and john/rude. he is a family friend so he remains nameless. he claims that that the ficht is not new technology. but, proven technology. bombardier reworked the omc ficht, by changing the gearcase and reworking the computer's. so basically the engine is still proven. the warranty is unbielievable. how can you buy an engine that stands behind thier product for 6 years. the HPDI injects geul at over 750 psi. the rude and merc inject in double digits. but i hate mercury with such a passion, so if i went to buy a new engine i would be buying an evinrude. They have been making engines for 100 years so they must be doing something right. YAMAHA HAS A NICE PRODUCT TOO. I MAY BUY A 130 CARB FOR MY TROPHY CC. THEY ARE NICE BUT FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO DON'T KNOW A V-4 O/B FROM YAM WAS A STOLE DESIGHN FROM OMC. OMC LATER SUED YAMAHA FOR DAMAGES AND LOYALTIES. YAMAHA WAS THEN LEAGALY CLEARED TO MANUFACTUR THE YAMAHA. IF YOU DON'T BELEIVE ME ANALYZE THE 115 AND 130 YAM. THEY ARE IDENTICAL TO A EARLY 90'S V4 RUDE OR JOHNNY.
WORK IS FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW HOW TO FISH
A FRIENDLY JOKE = PLEASE DISGARD THE LANGUAGE
WHAT DOES FORCE STAND FOR, REFERRING TO FORCE OUTBOARDS
F-FUCKIN
O-OLD
R-REBUILT
C-CHRYSLER
E-ENGINE
HOPE I DID'NT OFEND ANYONE BUT ANY FORCE OUT THERE IF THERE IS ANY LEFT WILL PROBALY FELL THE SAME WAY AS ME
I have a 2002 250hp rude, bought new this year, it is great, gas consumption is 30% better, I got a 7 years warrantee (three from bomb and 4 more with rollover of rebate) I think that is a good resale issue, it can be transfered. It pushes my boat with all of the gear and full tank of gas to 40 mph (parker 25 ft.). No smoke, uses very little oil, the motor is very quiet, I don't have to scream at my guests to be heard.
What sold me on the rude is what IS NOT ON THIS AND OTHER BOARDS. No complaints on rudes, but Yammi has problems. They are not called recalls but tech bulletins-oiling problems, fouled plugs, electrical problems. Read the threads, then make up your own mind.
You asked for reasons and some facts. Hope this is educational.
quote:Originally posted by CAPTAIN MORGAN 2:
i was talking to a dealer yesterday who sells yam and john/rude. he is a family friend so he remains nameless. he claims that that the ficht is not new technology. but, proven technology.
Personaly, I like the new Fichts better then the HPDI, but going by what your dealer friend told you, I'd have to disagree with him that Ficht is proven. For Ficht to be proven, it should have been right when they 1st hit the market, like the HPDI. Instead, Ficht motors (Atleast the larger ones), were blowing up left and right until recently. And recently doesn't make it proven. You can say that the new Ficht (since 2001) has been proven, but I don't think there are enough of them on the water to make a decent comparison compared to the HPDI. I rarely see Fichts on the water these days but Yamaha HPDIs seem to be a everywhere. I'd say going Ficht is a gamble but I like the odds. That's the reason I'd go Ficht.
Bombardier Recreational Products is not almost bankrupt. They are the division of the corporation that is making the money. As stated earlier, the Aircraft & Mass Transit divisions are what is losing money.
Concerning the the complexity of the Evinrude vs. Yamaha, the Rude has one fuel pump that supplies about 30psi to the six injectors. The Yamaha has two fuel pumps that feed a high pressure fuel pump that supply the 6 injectors up to 700psi and 1000psi on the 250hpdi. They both have an ECU to control the engine and the Yamaha has a O2 sensor that needs regular servicing. The Yamaha also cuts off 2 cylinders at idle which causes a rough idle and still uses more fuel than the Evinrude. The Evinrude reduces the fuel charge and timeing of the fuel charge at idle to conserve fuel. I think the Yamaha has a more complex and less efficient DI system than Evinrude or Mercury. The Evinrude and Mercury also makes more power and use less fuel than the Yamaha.
Consider corrosion. None of the Japanese Manufacturers can match the alloys of Evinrude and Mercury. Yamaha has to put zinc anodes in the water jacket to keep them from corroding. Look at any 5-10year old Yamaha if you can find one, they will rot much quicker than the US built engines.
As far as resale. Look at NADA. They take a percentage off of MSRP each year. You will get the same money for your Yamaha as you will get from a 2002 or newer Evinrude.
The Evinrude warranty covers every part on the motor for all three years. The Yamaha drops certain electrical components for the 2nd year and more for the 3rd year so the Evinrude has the Yamaha covered there.
turbo, come on! Because Yamaha uses a couple of anodes in the water jacket, this backs up the fact that the alloy on the Ficht's is better. In case you don't remember Yamaha redid their alloy back in the mid 90's. This alloy allowed for a more reliable saltwater use. Do you hear much of the mid 90's Yamaha's corroding away! I think not! You seem to forget that the Evinrude has an extra anode above the cav plate of which Yamaha does not. Maybe for the same reason?
Next the only time HPDI's are not running on all 6 is when out of gear in idle, when in gear the HPDI's are on all six. You are confusing the EFI's with the HPDI's.
You are not the first to point at the pressure differences of the Ficht and Merc vs the Yamaha.
Has anyone complained that they have had fuel leaks! Next the Merc uses an air pump to atomize
So much for complexity! Evinrude had to put a pin in the combustion chamber to break up the fuel charge.
Yamaha HPDI's I admit do not get the fuel economy at trolling speeds the Ficht and Merc do, but at cruise, where 85% of most boaters spend their life, the difference is negligible.
The Fichts since all the redesigns and quality control seem to be on a good streak, but it took them a few years to get there. The Rudes seem to be on a proven reliabilty track as the Merc seem to have cleaned up the OPTI's over a period of years. Looking from the outside in, the Yamaha's even though have a few recalls, seem to be fairing better given the time they have been released compared to the OPTI's and Rudes.
One other thing someone please bring me dyno results that the Mercs and Rudes develop more power! I hear all the rumblings that they do but I have yet to see Dyno results! To make such a bold statement without the Dyno results dioesn't fly! Especially when each manufacturer uses different props, gear ratios etc! To many
variables. A Dyno is the only way to prove it!
Yamahas warranty only drops after year 1 on the controls guages and wiring harness up to the guages. All other components are covered. It's a myth that the warranty is declining out past year 1.
The KEY point IS they all seem to be good reliable engines!
[This message was edited by KevinM on 07-11-03 at 11:16 AM.]
I really hate to say this, but Birdman is probably right on re-sale values. The Fichts have none. It is not deserved, but perception is everything and they still carry the cross from the 1999 and earlier problems. I am a Ficht owner, and I can speak as to how my two motors have performed over the past three years. As more and more Ficht owners have no problems, they will eventually earn back their reputation, one owner at a time. Until then, if resale is a major consideration, you are better off with Yammies. Me, I run them till you can't run them no more, so re-sale is not a big consideration. But reliability is, and I am on top of the curve there.
"Everyone should believe in something. I believe I will go fishing" --- Henry David Thoreau
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You are correct, they are all good, reliable engines and you should not hesitate to buy any of them.
I was responding to a few of Birdman's comments.
One, BRP is not going bankrupt, they are a very profitable division of the corporation and that is why the CEO wants to sell the division. The knows that they will bring good money to the corporation. Evinrude/Johnson have gained 5 points of market share in the last year, however they are still well below where they were in the late 1990s. Also, Sea-Doo is #1 and Ski-Doo is #1 in Market share in their respective markets.
Two, FICHT is the least complex DI system. I did not comment about any fuel leaks, I was talking about the moving parts that the HPDI system and the fact that it takes several fuel pumps to make it work. Also, on the HPDI, Yamaha does cut out two cylinders until 1800rpm whether you are in gear or in neutral. That is why you have the vibration and rough low speed operation while idling or trolling.
Three, resale is based off of NADA, not Internet message boards.
I threw in the corrosion, warranty and performance issues because Evinrude and Mercury are superior in these respects.
I don't have a problem with Yamaha or any other brands, I just wanted to add my 2 cents and comment when a owner of a particular brand bashes another with inaccurate statements.
Bombardier Recreational Products is not almost bankrupt. They are the division of the corporation that is making the money. As stated earlier, the Aircraft & Mass Transit divisions are what is losing money.
Your the second person to miss quote me on that. If never said anything about "Bomb Recreational Division". I said "Evinrude" is just about bankrupt. And that, wether you like it or not, wether you like their motors or not, and wether they are proven or not, wether they rot or not.... is fact. Don't shoot the messenger, live with the facts.
quote:Birdmans Quote:
(as the rude boys are almost bankrupt, again).
Personally, I think that SUCKS!! All it does is lift a bit of pressure off Yami to keep a step ahead and keep the quality of their motors on track. In otherwords, lowers compitition, because lets face it, Merc isn't even in the running right now.
By the way, there is a BRAND NEW (1 week old) Optimax JUST installed on the boat across from my slip. I'll take a picture and post it for ya over the weekend. In fact, its in the same slip where the "famous" picture of my Abaco was taken (see link below). I used the slip to change my prop. Anywho, I CAN NOT EVEN believe how bad the thing sounds. It astonishes me what the thing sounds like. And this is no joke, I feel like going over and talking to the guy and telling him he ought to return it and get his money back. He is obviosly not well off as it is a older boat in bad shape with nothing on it. He replaced an old vintage 1950's or so motor I used to admire, must of finally went.
A division of a company (ie bombardier rec division) can not go bankrupt, at least not in the way that the term is used in business. A division can lose tons of money and cause the company that owns it to go bankrupt. But the division itself can not go bankrupt. Likewise, a product name (ie the evinrude outboard product that is currently produced by the rec division of bombardier) can not go bankrupt. The product may however lose tons of money causing the owning company to go bankrupt.
I have no personal knowledge as to which products or divsions of bombardier are making or losing money.
Bird man; The orbital techno. is being used with both Merc and Yammy. They both us aircomperssors{like the a\\ccompressor on your car} to compress the air for injection. This is old free{no patten} techno. The pulles and bearings on top of the air compressors have a very short life. I have worked for a multi engine dealer for over 25 years, we have service more pulleys belts and bearings on Yammy and Mercs. than all other parts on thr rudes. I have a commercial crabber with over 2300 hrs. on a 2001 150 rude. with no problems. noramal prevent service. Orbital techno has more moving parts. The rudes from 2000 on have very few problems.
By the way My brother and I just ordered a 33 palmetto custom. 2 250 Rudes will be my power.
You ever had any problems with your lower unit on your Rude? That seems to be coming up alot with others of that year. I'm curious since I just bought a Ficht '01 150 myself. I'd also like to know what you do for normal and preventative maintenance. Email me @ jknox@tigerstadium.net
I have a 23 Parker DVSC and Had the 200 HPDI on the back. It wasn't enough power for the boat , weight 5500 with fuel. The 200 HPDI is at the top range for that block size also, 2.6 litre.
A local Yammie dealer had taken all the leftovers from Yammie on the 250 OX-66.
New 2002 OX-66 out of the box 11K, another 500 for the extended warrenty, rigging was 500 and a nice neat job.
Traded the HPDI in and got 5k for it, they don't hold there value either considering the origianl cost.
Cost me 7 k out of pocket to get rid of the HPDI, go to a 250 with a bigger block, 3.1 litre with a 5 year transferable warrenty.
The boat is now a 37 knot boat if needed.
I wasn't crazy about the HPDI either, lots of oil and the price of them is nuts.
Also watch out for fuel conatmination. If for some reason you get water past your seperator and the fuel filter and it gets into what they call MICRO FILTERS in each injector get out the check book cause it is not covered under warrenty. Best part is that it so labor intesive that you would be better off blowing the power head. Belive me I had the problem not with hitting the micro injectors but close enough to get me off the engine, in a NY minute.
15 5 for a new 250 HPDI and 17 for a 225 4 stroke.
The price of outboards are more then diesels.
That is the next move, rebuild an older Bertram 28 and go with 300 Yanmars.
The dealer is on LI NY if needed and he has a few left if anyone interested in the OX - 66.
Why not a nice black and blue Mercury Optimax Motor?
It seems as if Merc, Yamaha, and Evinrude can all relate to a few black and blue bruises these days! I think that Yamaha has some fresh scars – obviously a result of volume sales and exposure. However, the great thing about Yamaha is that they don’t try to piss on the customer by (1) going into denial about a problem – right MERC, or (2) sending in a pack of bumbling idiots to correct a problem – right EVINRUDE? What I seem to be reading about as of recent are a handful of HPDI motors that encountered a few problems – all addressed in a recall and all addressed promptly and without issue by Yamaha and their dealer network.
As a former Merc owner – I will echo a common complaint. I owned a small Merc 90 that would not run properly 3 months after ownership. Merc cares not for the “little guy”. After no corrections made by 2 Merc dealerships to my motor – I went to the boys in Swiss-consin myself. You know, those nice mid-west folks??? I must have had too small of a motor – no one there seemed to want to help. I was consistently pushed back to their worthless dealer network. Stories of Merc’s continued customer mistreatment are a common occurrence on the boating/fishing boards and Merc’s handling of their Optimax problems were a joke, at best. At first, Merc denied the overall Optimax problem for close to a year (remember that “gauge problem”). After that - they brought a half-baked correction/recall to the marketplace that ultimately required 2 recalls to completely correct the problem (the first recall was not enough). Bonus points, however, for their partnership with Yamaha, their new 4-Stroke offering and a quality racing motor.
Evinrude has offered the marketplace quite a rollercoaster ride – which has not ended yet. The ride started with the Ficht catastrophe. Defective DFI technology that OMC opted not to correct or could not correct. After 2 years of Ficht fiasco – OMC goes bankrupt and sells out the ‘Rudes to Bombardier. There were no surprises here. Bomb dumped a tons of cash in remarketing the ‘Rude products and threw some 100 train and airplane engineers at the Ficht problem. Are we to believe that this is was needed to get the Ficht problem corrected? Personally, I think that OMC knew the end was near and decided to stifle resources to correct the problem. Resources well utilized by Bomb.
WOW – the Evinrude with Ficht technology is back! GREAT NEWS! News that comes just in time to share the front page with Bombardier deciding to sell off their Recreational Division. Yeah, Evinrude, Johnson, and those annoying jet-skis – all are going bye-bye. Question is – to who?
This bad news also seems to be mixed with many, many questions about this 6-year warranty they Evinrude is advertising in our favorite fishing magazines. Unlike Yamaha – it seems as if the Evinrude extended warranties are covered by Evinrude for the first few years – HOWEVER – the rest of the term of the warranty is handled by a 3rd Party Warranty Company. This company will be able to give your Evinrude the thumbs up or thumbs down on warranty work. Guess what they will choose on a pretty consistent basis? I’m not saying that the new Evinrude owners will not honor warranty claims (yet another question mark), but your claim will be scrutinized by these 3rd Party Companies. Ever read a story about Yamaha not honoring a legitimate claim? Not me and I don’t expect to. I HAVE HEARD of Yamaha performing warranty work on a motor that is out of warranty – kudos to Yamaha.
So what does that $900 difference in MSRP get you? While the advantage in MSRP goes to Evinrude – note that they are also the heavier model. Also note that the LOW MSRP goes to Yamaha. I believe that means that Yamaha can offer you your motor at a lower price if packaged with a new boat. For me, the questions about the future of Evinrude, the poor run record of Evinrude (remember, Bomb only corrected this for a short time), and this warranty gray area is enough to keep me in the Yamaha dugout.
I am shopping for a new boat right now and, funny – I don’t see the manufacturers clamoring for a new Evinrude Ficht on the backs of their boats. I do, however, see Key West, Robalo, Aquasport, Sea Pro, Wellcraft, Hydrasport, Sea Hunt and many others promoting and advertising the Yamaha motors as a key part of their packages. When I asked my local Hydrasport dealer (Thunder Marine) about the changes to their Hydrasports since the Genmar acquisition – I was told that the “big excitement” for them comes from Hydra now putting Yamah motors on the boats – rather than the Evinrude and Johnson product. Hum?
-MadDog-
[This message was edited by Mad-Dog on 07-13-03 at 09:01 AM.]
200 Yam HPDI or the new Evinrude/Johnson? 
