ULSD, what to do....

[Dae]

With Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel appearing in some places and being mandated for '07 what is everyone's plan since it won't lube as well as current diesel fuel available?

Although I hear refiners will add a lubricate to make up for what's lost, my understanding is that it will not be enough based on the standards set.

I planning on using TCW3 as an additive in my diesel truck .... What's your plan? Do you think there might be a more cost effective product other then TCW3 to make sure our diesel fuel pump and injectors stay scar free?

- Dae

[reefhunter2]

My refiner, Cenex, has this under control. They are warrantying the fuels they make for use in our trucks and ag equipment for 100,000 miles regardless of the manufacturers warranty. I don't generally need to use additives, because the quality of the fuel is very high. If you use premium diesel (cetane 50) you won't have a problem.

[Dae]

Alfred,

Your luck to get Diesel with a 50 cetane rating. The highest marked pumps I've seen around here say minimum of 40. Even if it had a high cetane rating, it still doesn't mean it's got the lube in it. From my understanding, the wear scar rating the US put in for ULSD is 580 but Bosch wanted a max of 320. Knowing that to be true, even if a refiner put in enough lube to meet the Government's standard, it's still not enough to meet the Bosch (they seem to make most of the Common rail injector stuff) standard. In the EU, I hear the max is only 50 for their ULSD!

I'm really worried about this because what I see happening is after 100K miles (which your refinier is warranting for) is when the problems will start to appear. I remember the original Durmax diesels having injector problems after 100K miles because of wear scars, This caused them to either change the design or use different materials.


- Dae

[Bugbuster]

I will burn a little off road in all mine from time to time.

[butler1227]

http://www.k100fueltreatment.com/truck.html

[CohoMike]

Check stanadyne.com. Several formulations, one will work for you.

[mirage2521]

Dae - 11/29/2006 11:45 PM

With Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel appearing in some places and being mandated for '07 what is everyone's plan since it won't lube as well as current diesel fuel available?

Although I hear refiners will add a lubricate to make up for what's lost, my understanding is that it will not be enough based on the standards set.

I planning on using TCW3 as an additive in my diesel truck .... What's your plan? Do you think there might be a more cost effective product other then TCW3 to make sure our diesel fuel pump and injectors stay scar free?

- Dae

My diesel guy(Saunders Yacht Services) very strongly recommends NOT using "do it yourself" solutions to add lubricity. Spend the very few dollers and get a reputable product like Racor or Standyne and protect that very large investment properly.

[baitdragger]

what to do.... not to worry and keep fueling up at a place that turns a lot of fuel, change oil and filters regularly.

no need to buy additives...the sulfur currently in LSD fuel has been breaking down your lube oil for years, lowers the lubricity on a molecular level

so the new ULSD will harm your engine's oil less on a molecular level, which should make a wash for lubrication loss due to less sulfur in the new fuel

but in reality I doubt anyone will notice a lubrication difference

I would worry more about paying more for lower BTU fuel and wonder why the USA lobbyists have kept the diesel industry down where the EU has had this type of fuel for years now

read trade publications about the new fuel, especially in the petroleum industry, not ad's from people claiming they sell a snake oil...they don't care about your engine, they just want your dollar

[trapit]

You don't need LSD unless you have an 07. I think the manufacturers will have it covered.

[Dae]

baitdragger - 11/30/2006 9:54 PM

no need to buy additives...the sulfur currently in LSD fuel has been breaking down your lube oil for years, lowers the lubricity on a molecular level

so the new ULSD will harm your engine's oil less on a molecular level, which should make a wash for lubrication loss due to less sulfur in the new fuel

There's a problem with that logic. The problem with the fuel system before the fuel gets to the cylinders? What's going to happen with the injectors and fuel pumps?

- Dae

[Dae]

trapit - 11/30/2006 9:57 PM

You don't need LSD unless you have an 07. I think the manufacturers will have it covered.

Current diesel is LSD (500ppm). In '07, new government regulations will force ULSD (15ppm) on everyone. It's going to be mighty hard to find LSD in '07.

- Dae

[markm0369]

If you can get it in your area the bio-diesel alternatives are the way to go as far as lubricity for the injectors and pump (yes this is THE real problem with ULSD). even low concentrations( 2% bio) are enough to prevent wear, same as reg diesel now. and solves some of the cloudiness,and viscosity problems associated with cold weather and bio. dont know if it is as bad(or good depending on your point of view) as cleaning the tanks in this low of a concentration.
many of the fleet wholesalers are carring this now (and have been for several years) and its use and wear prevention qualities are well known.

[Bitefish]

Go to WallyWorld and buy yourself some Gray Powerservice (in the GRAY bottle)

It has both a cetane boost (not necessary with the ULSD as most of that is 50 cetane) and lubricity additive.

Reasonably priced and a solution that works.

I've run the stuff in everything from old tech to new direct-injection diesels and it makes a significant difference in engines that want higher-cetane fuel.

Saunders is correct - use a commercial lubricity additive. "Rolling your own" is asking for it unless you want to spend on the testing to prove what you're doing will actually work.

The "marine" stuff is just marked up because its for a boat!

[trapit]

Dae - 11/30/2006 9:32 PM

Current diesel is LSD (500ppm). In '07, new government regulations will force ULSD (15ppm) on everyone. It's going to be mighty hard to find LSD in '07.

- Dae

Yeah I got LSD and USLD mixed up. All I know is that this USLD thing is pissen me off. We were gonna add two more concrete trucks to our fleet, but next year they are gonna be 6-7K more per truck, b/c of emissions stuff.

[Bitefish]

ULSD is here now guys. Model year 07 diesels REQUIRE it, and model year 07 vehicles are being sold NOW.

We have multiple stations in our area with ULSD badges on the pumps - they were LSD badges for the last few months, but within the last 30 days have changed over.

BTW, the fuel is returning about 5% better fuel mileage on my Jetta than the LSD did! The cetane difference in the ULSD does matter if your engine is set up for it.

[sbieshelt]

I use the grey bottle of power service in the car and the tractor to add lube. All the stations I have seen in MD have switched over within the last couple months.

Steve

[Chaps]

Biodiesel - even in small amounts. Check out this testimony by a Stanadyne honcho to congress:

Ms. Joann Lee Freeborn
Kansas House Republican District 107
Chairman, House Environment Committee

Dear Ms. Freeborn:

This letter is to express support for Kansas House Concurrent Resolution No. 5069 which encourages the use of biodiesel in low blend levels in the State of Kansas.

As an introduction, I am Quality Systems Manager at Stanadyne Automotive Corp., the leading independent U.S. manufacturer of diesel fuel injection equipment. Also, I serve as chairman of the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) diesel fuel injection equipment standards committee and chairman of the International Organization for Standardization (ISO) working group on diesel fuel lubricity.

In supporting the above mentioned resolution, I am speaking not only for Stanadyne, but for the entire worldwide diesel fuel injection equipment community. All diesel fuel injection equipment has some reliance on diesel fuel as a lubricant. Wear due to excessive friction resulting in shortened life of diesel injection pumps and injectors, has sometimes been ascribed to lack of lubricity in the fuel. For many years, the lubricity of the diesel fuel was sufficient to provide the protection needed to maintain adequate performance. Recent changes in the composition of diesel fuel, primarily the need to reduce the sulfur level, have inadvertently caused the removal of some of the compounds that provide lubricity to the fuel. This has, in turn, given rise to concerns that today’s diesel fuels do not have sufficient lubricity to protect certain fuel injection equipment. There have been numerous examples from the field where lack of lubricity in the fuel has caused premature equipment breakdown and in some cases, catastrophic failures. This problem will be more dramatic as EPA moves to further reduce the sulfur levels in petrodiesel fuel.

Through cooperation with the National Biodiesel Board, we have tested biodiesel at Stanadyne and results indicate that the inclusion of 2% biodiesel into any conventional diesel fuel will be sufficient to address the lubricity concerns that we have with these existing diesel fuels. From our standpoint, inclusion of 2% biodiesel is desirable for two reasons. First, it would eliminate the inherent variability associated with the use of other additives and whether sufficient additive was used to make the fuel fully lubricious.

Second, we consider biodiesel a fuel or a fuel component--not an additive. It is possible to burn pure biodiesel in conventional diesel engines. Thus, if more biodiesel is added than required to increase lubricity, there will not be the adverse consequences that might be seen if other lubricity additives are dosed at too high a level.

For the reasons above, we fully support and encourage the adoption of House Concurrent Resolution No. 5069.

Sincerely,
Paul Henderson
Manager, Quality Management Systems

[reefhunter2]

Dae - 11/30/2006 11:12 AM

Alfred,

Your luck to get Diesel with a 50 cetane rating. The highest marked pumps I've seen around here say minimum of 40. Even if it had a high cetane rating, it still doesn't mean it's got the lube in it. From my understanding, the wear scar rating the US put in for ULSD is 580 but Bosch wanted a max of 320. Knowing that to be true, even if a refiner put in enough lube to meet the Government's standard, it's still not enough to meet the Bosch (they seem to make most of the Common rail injector stuff) standard. In the EU, I hear the max is only 50 for their ULSD!

I'm really worried about this because what I see happening is after 100K miles (which your refinier is warranting for) is when the problems will start to appear. I remember the original Durmax diesels having injector problems after 100K miles because of wear scars, This caused them to either change the design or use different materials.


- Dae

There's lots of cetane 50 around. You just need to look for it. Most every station on the "High Line" sells it.

My trucks have mechanical fuel pumps and the boat in sig has a VP44 pump which have been running just fine on ULSD for over a year without any problems. Our truck fleet was part of the test study group that has been using ULSD for more than three years and Conoco-Phillips produced it. After the test period, the engines were torn down and examined for wear. The fuel was then adjusted to compensate.

Adding 5 or 10% bio diesel will add lubricity, but may add extra hydrocarbons to the atmosphere - sorta like defeating the reason to use ULSD.

[mirage2521]

baitdragger - 11/30/2006 8:54 PM

what to do.... not to worry and keep fueling up at a place that turns a lot of fuel, change oil and filters regularly.

no need to buy additives...the sulfur currently in LSD fuel has been breaking down your lube oil for years, lowers the lubricity on a molecular level

so the new ULSD will harm your engine's oil less on a molecular level, which should make a wash for lubrication loss due to less sulfur in the new fuel

but in reality I doubt anyone will notice a lubrication difference

I would worry more about paying more for lower BTU fuel and wonder why the USA lobbyists have kept the diesel industry down where the EU has had this type of fuel for years now read trade publications about the new fuel, especially in the petroleum industry, not ad's from people claiming they sell a snake oil...they don't care about your engine, they just want your dollar

Huh? Your injector pump and your injectors are lubricated by FUEL not lube oil in most engines. If your fuel is mixing with your lube oil you have bigger problems than what additive to buy.

[baitdragger]

mirage---
sulfur in the fuel is not burned off completely(one of the reason for the switch to ULSD for environment reasons). It condenses in the exhaust system(made worse by EGR's) and can be re-intruduced into the engine that way and the sulfuric acid then breaks down the oil in the crankcase.

I don't remember the article verbatim, I have it at work and will get it monday so I can quote with abandon. It just points out how the new fuels combined with CJ-4 oils have good results so far on their tests and that higher sulfur actually breaks down oil to some point as to not worry about the loss of lubricity from the lower sulfur fuel

the new ULSD fuel itself has to pass ASTM D975 revised standards for lubricity as of JAN 1, 2005 and Fleet Owner quotes the following

"WILL I NEED TO USE A FUEL ADDITIVE?

Like low-sulfur diesel, ULSD fuel requires good lubricity and corrosion inhibitors to prevent unacceptable engine wear. As necessary, additives to increase lubricity and to inhibit corrosion will be added to ULSD prior to its retail sale. With these additives, ULSD is expected to perform as well as low-sulfur diesel."

hence, responding to the original post I don't think there is a need to buy snake oil additives. but if everyone recommends some 3 stage aftermarket lubricant injector system, then that is fine with me...ain't my money

I just suggest it is better spent on frequent oil/filter/fuel filter changes and buying fuel from a reputable place with clean tanks...but that is just me