The Boating Forum - Dumb, dumb 2 stroke question...
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08-09-2002, 11:33 AM
I have been going over my first 2 stroke engine for the past weeks and an pretty comfortable with how most of it works. 1999 Yamaha 150 saltwater. I understand the oil injection system, the oil transfer system, and the gearcase lube in the lower unit...
One dumb question... How does the powerhead crankcase get lube? From the mix oil that does not burn? That is pretty cool but seems a bit amazing that is works. Am I missing something? For the life of me, I do not see any other method.
Thanks in advance.
All components of a Two stroke engine are oiled with the fuel/oil mixture as it enters the motor thru the ports,etc and then ignited and burned.
08-09-2002, 11:43 AM
Amazing, isn't it?
I want one for my next hot rod... Maybe 2 x 250 hp with a shared hydrostat drive. Talk about throttle response.
08-09-2002, 11:58 AM
Many, many years ago the quickest stock street machine in the quarter mile was a three cylinder two stroke Kawasaki motorcycle. The displacement of the engine was 0.5 liters (or 500cc as it was referred to back then). Kawasaki also had a similar machine displacing 0.75 liters but it wasn't quite as quick in the quarter mile as the smaller displacement machine.
08-09-2002, 05:32 PM
The crankcase gets lubed from the "bottom up" What I mean is that the fuel/air/oil mixture gets applied to the "bottom" of the crankcase (think about where the oil pan is on a four stroke) and gets sucked up into the cylinders for ignition. Some engines also have oil directly injected into the crankcase via an oil pump and lines running outside of the crankcase to specific points around it. My HPDI has this second external system. The reed valves at the bottom of the crankcase prevent the fuel/air/oil mixture from being partially ejected backwards out of the motor once it is sucked inside it.
I had a '74 suzuki T-500 2 stroke and that mother would fly out of the hole. I learned a lot about 2 srokes working on that bike. Alas, it succumbed to red line fever while I was passing a buick. Those were the days! chip.
08-09-2002, 06:01 PM
I had the Kawisaki 750 2 stroke triple (I think it was called the "H2". Throttle reponse was awesome - nothing quite like it for passing on a 2 lane road. I've had faster bikes (FJ1200), but nothing that felt nearly so quick. I have a hard time believing the 500 (H1) was faster in the quarter - maybe my memory is going. Handling was another matter - frame had a hidden hinge in it somewhere...
08-09-2002, 06:47 PM
Yep, I had an H1, right about the hinged frame. Didn't seem all that quick to me either. My favorite of the time was an RD 350, sweet little bike. I just have no desire to get on a street bike anymore, now if I could have a WR426 I would definitely fit in with the geezer dirt rider crowd!
08-09-2002, 06:59 PM
Those Yamaha RD350 would scare the crap out of Honda 750s and most Harley. They were incredible off the line.
Another dumb 2 stroke outboard question. How common is the use of roller bearing on the "big end" of the connecting rod and crank journals ? The 1960's vintage 7.5 hp Sears/Scott I rebuilt back in the 80's had them.
Try this web site. It's better than the discovery channel!!!
08-09-2002, 07:12 PM
The only two strokes I am real familiar with is lawnmowers. The Lawnboy engines (OMC) had needle bearings throughout. My brother-in-law came over a few months ago with a LawnBoy mower in perfect shape, he said he didn't need it any more and wanted me to have it. I was so proud of that old thing. Then wifey decides to do me a favor and mow the grass for me one day. Oh well, she got about half the front yard done on that straight gas.
08-09-2002, 07:30 PM
Ahh, the Yamaha RD 350. I owned a 250,350 and 400.
Between the three I allways had a bike to ride. The 350 was my first street bike. Damn fast. Used to eat Yamaha 650 Specials ona regular basis.
A buddy of mine (rode a 1950 panhead) and I used to ride together all the time. I allways got ragged on when we would go to the local biker bar. Mostly Harley's. Got to know the bikers well. Good bunch. I regained respect when I lined up with what was supposed to be one of the fastest Harley's at the Bar (Paradise Alley, Jackson,MS.). Fortunatley for me the race was very short. About 1/8 mile prior to hitting a redlight. Need less to say I absolutely embarrassed the hell out of the Harley "dudes".
Great, great times.
Sorry.....took a wrong turn down memory lane there for a sec. 2-strokes get lube from oil mixed in gas. Carb>reed valve>intake >crankcase>transfer ports>combustion chamber>compression>ignition>exhaust.
As stated earlier, the reed valves ensure a "one-way" direction of air/fuel flow.
No valves, camshaft, timing chain/gear.
Food for thought also. A 2-stroke can backwards. Think about it. I have done it.
I don't know which was faster- the 500 or the 750, but the 750 suzi was watercooled hence it may have been slower. Don't know about the Kaw.
I wonder if there's any interest among bike makers in producing hpdi motorcycles?
Speaking of hpdi, how do they get lube in the crankcase? The fuel is injected directly into the cylinder right? chip.
quote:Originally posted by inkahoots:........
Then wifey decides to do me a favor and mow the grass for me one day. Oh well, she got about half the front yard done on that straight gas.
I can do better than that - my friend tells his wife that the car's radiator is leaking but to fill it and she can use the car. She filled it right to the top and drove off.........yep - the oil got filled to the top with water. Got about two miles out of it before the trip and engine ended.
East Coast Trailers
08-10-2002, 08:02 AM
Funny how much all us fishermen have in common.
58 AllState Moped $5. Never should have sold it.
Yamaha mini enduro
Hodaka Super Rat
Yami 250 Enduro
Suzi GT 380
Suzi IT 400
Yami RD 400
Kawasaki 500 (Thought they were Mach III's) tank slapping center cylinder burning SOB with no brakes. 0-60 4 seconds. Front forks weigh 4 oz under full acceleration at 100 Mph.
Suzi GT 750 Water Buffalo
Finally graduated to 4 strokes:
Suzi GS 750 (3 of them) 1 with Stage 2 Yoshi kit
Honda 750 V overheating POS
2 crushed vertabrae, screw in the knee, hole in the leg (all from the dirt bikes)
Moved to FL where it's way to hot, no good roads, mountains or hills, way to many senior citizens so I took up fishing.
Ah, memories. Lets see here: (not in order)
1974 Honda XL 350 (street/trail)
1980 Honda XL 80
1978 Suzuki DS 80
1968 Honda Trail 70
1977 Honda Trail 70 (still have)
1980 Suzuki GS 250 (First street bike)
1980 Suzuki PE 250 (Enduro)
1979 Suzuki TS 185 (street/trail)
1970 Yamaha DT 250
1979 Motobacane moped (fast moped)
1978 Gerelli moped
08-10-2002, 10:08 AM
I never knew they made 2 stroke bike engines that large. Must have been a sweet ride!
You never know which thread will get going!
Good info. Thanks.
08-10-2002, 12:00 PM
The last 2-stroke cars imported in any quantity were the SAABs. When raced without mufflers they sounded like pop-corn machines from hell!
08-10-2002, 03:16 PM
I think you are right Fish_on it was a Mach. III. Memories from that era are not all that clear! I also had a Hodaka Super Rat, ugliest dirt bike ever made! Didn't it have a big brother 125 called the Wombat? We really side tracked your thread jocko, I keep thinking we should have an off topic area to freely talk non-boating amongst ourselves. The off topic site states "you may not post new topics here." Any way still a great forum.
East Coast Trailers
08-11-2002, 04:52 AM
Inkahoots, you are correct it was a combat wombat if I recall. I realize I also left out a few more bikes. Yep those days are still a little vague to me as well. Never worried about breaking bones or anything else.
sorry to get off the thread topic as well. It's amazing how the engines have evolved and how much power the 2 stroke outboard generate.
I still love to see the 2 stroke bikes running at Daytona. Ah, the smell of synthetic 2 stroke in the morning. Smells like Victory!
08-11-2002, 07:49 AM
What about the liquid-cooled Yamaha RZ/RD 500 and Suzuki RG500 2 stroke V4 bikes? These were sold everywhere but the US (could not meet emissions regs) in the mid to late 80s. Extremely quick out of the hole and had razor-sharp handling.
08-11-2002, 08:22 AM
Does anyone remember the last Yamaha 2 stroke street bike to be imported to the US? Seem to recall that it was a water cooled 400...Have looked around for a while, but they never seem to turn up...Gotta love the simplicity of those 2 strokes - could rebuild the top end of my H2 in a couple of hours (in the frame) with no special tools.
08-11-2002, 04:51 PM
I do remember a Yam. mechanic friend of mine showing me a 2 stroke street bike he had torn down in his shop a few years ago. Not sure of the displacement but seems to me it was a "V" configuration. I do recall the thing had catalytic converters. He mentioned that it was a rather rare bike. After totaling out my last street bike in '80 I turned my attention to dirt bikes. Last one was a '93 KX 250, sold it in '94 and haven't ridden since.
08-11-2002, 05:09 PM
I believe the last street legal 2 stroke bike sold in the US was the 1984 or 1985 Yamaha RZ350. Yes, it did have catalytic converters but most owners trashed those for a good set of expansion chambers.
08-11-2002, 07:03 PM
Sorry 2 stroke buddies. My '71 Norton 750 (4 stroke) Commando would leave a well tuned 500 Kawasaki behind in the quarter mile, period. Been there, done that!
You've been in the fla sun too long! lol chip.
East Coast Trailers
08-12-2002, 05:16 AM
From what I can find the Norton's and Mach III's were extremely close. I've run with a few norton's in my day and was very surprised. They could eat my GS750's (the stock ones) lunch from 100Mph on up. Of course the rider makes all the difference in the world.
The Mach III's came out in 69 weighing 382# and pumping 60hp (funny now). They had the highest #/hp rating at the time at 6#/hp. It turned a 12.61 quarter mile at 111.38 mph. http://www.amadirectlink.com/museum/exhibits/superbikes/Mach.html
Can't seem to find the stats on the 71 commando's but did find this: In February 1973, Norton Villiers chairman Dennis Poore sent him to the USA to prove to the disbelieving American importers that his published elapsed time to cover a standing quarter mile in 12.6 seconds on a standard 750 Commando was true. In front of a large entourage of Press, Norton officials, and world class drag racers he achieved a standing start quarter mile in 12.24 seconds, at the Orange County raceway. As far as we know, this time has never been equalled on a stock Commando.
08-12-2002, 04:04 PM
dznam yes the h2 was faster than the h1 didn't stop or turn well but was vary fast to the old wizard most two strokes have roller bearings for the big end of the rod. last but not least the yamaha hpdi fuel is injected into the cylinder but if you look at the port side at the bottom of the v.s.t. tank you will see a small electric oil pump that adds oil at the rate of 1500 to one to the gas.then in the usual place there is a crank driven oil pump that injects oil into the crank cases at a variable rate of from 50:1 at wot to 200:1 at idle.if you care the perpose of the electric oil pump adding oil to the fuel is to lube the injectors.
08-12-2002, 05:15 PM
First bike: 1959 250 cc Jawa from Czechoslavakia. Now CZ, I believe. We thought we were really cool.
Here's a terrific site for 2-cycle demo. Worth the wait.http://w3.one.net/~jschust/animations.html
If you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question!
Thanks for the info regarding crankcase lube, I about scratched a hole in my head trying to figure that out. chip.
08-13-2002, 03:55 PM
I earned the nickname "Blue Cloud" with my Kawasaki 500 H1. I think "Mach III" was the trade name for the Capacitor Discharge Ignition . Un-Godly fast when you could keep the carbs adjusted and the ignition pickups clean.
08-23-2002, 05:48 AM
yeah my motorcycle goes 50 miles off shore too