The Boating Forum - Mercury 275 Verado vs. Yamaha F250

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opaleski
07-22-2005, 09:15 AM
Which motor do you believe to be the best and why? This will decide on the boat I will be getting.


Afishinado
07-22-2005, 09:16 AM
I think black looks best on a white boat. Grey looks best on colored hulls. What color is the hull?

opaleski
07-22-2005, 09:19 AM
So your saying they are equal?? :grin: Havn't decided on a color yet? ;?


Reel-Rascals
07-22-2005, 09:21 AM
Buy the 275hp Verado and have to purchase premium fuel ;? @ close to $3/gallon :o ??? ... I don't think so.

The choice is simple - Bombardier E-Tec. Even Yummie's own tests prove that their HPDI motor is cheaper to own/operate in the long run than their 4-stroke equivalent. Given that, and where the E-Tec outperforms the HPDI ... the decision is easy IMHO.

Afishinado
07-22-2005, 09:21 AM
Let the admiral pick the hull color and you're set to go!

Three Vs
07-22-2005, 09:23 AM
I had the same choice and went trip 275 verado. The verado is a complete system(power steering, dts,autosync...) Its faster, lower in sound, better torque, more options...I have 150hrs on mine so far so good :thumbsup: Only con I can find is fuel burn above cruise on the 275 you will get 27gph at the pins :o However, I can cruise @ 12/motor 45mph :thumbsup: I own a 36 contender and with trip f250s top speed 57 with trip 275 I have hit 64 that alone is reason for me....

Three Vs
07-22-2005, 09:25 AM
As for premium fuel I would put that in my f250s if I owned them. Though you don't lose that much overall power, if its a concern go verado 250 and still get a better all around motor :thumbsup:

opaleski
07-22-2005, 09:28 AM
At what speed do you get on plane? I'm looking at a 38 Fountain or maybe a 36 Contender CC. A Fountain you must use Merc's-- Also do you burn Premium gas?

Onewolf
07-22-2005, 09:29 AM
Do you have good access to 91+ octane fuel? If not then it makes no sense to pay extra for the Verado 275 (other than for vanities sake, but you're not a vain person are you?).

My personal opinion is that it's better to pick the boat and then pick the power. Of course if you choose the Fountain then your engine choices are somewhat limited. :grin: I think Intrepid will rig whatever outboard you want.

I'm still skeptical of the longevity of the supercharger on the Verados. I would wait another year or two to see how long they last and how much they cost when they start poofing. :o I do like the auto sync and the drive by wire throttle of the Verado.

Doug

Three Vs
07-22-2005, 09:34 AM
Intrepid is rigging merc and Suzuki both great motors :thumbsup: I am not bashing yahama just when presented with this exact choice I went verado. I would have went 250 but I like speed and wanted the fastest four stroke option available to me....BTW my marina has high octane so that also help with the decision I am paying 2.79/gallon with .10 cent discount :thumbsup:

Paul
07-22-2005, 09:49 AM
Reel-Rascals - 7/22/2005 9:21 AM

Even Yummie's own tests prove that their HPDI motor is cheaper to own/operate in the long run than their 4-stroke equivalent. .

I would be interested in seeing the Yamaha report which contains this conclusion.

Three Vs
07-22-2005, 09:51 AM
Paul - 7/22/2005 9:49 AM

[QUOTE]Reel-Rascals - 7/22/2005 9:21 AM

Even Yummie's own tests prove that their HPDI motor is cheaper to own/operate in the long run than their 4-stroke equivalent. .

Yeah, you dont need to add fuel to a blown hpdi....

evernic
07-22-2005, 09:52 AM
Reel-Rascals - 7/22/2005 9:21 AM

Buy the 275hp Verado and have to purchase premium fuel ;? @ close to $3/gallon :o ??? ... I don't think so.

The choice is simple - Bombardier E-Tec. Even Yummie's own tests prove that their HPDI motor is cheaper to own/operate in the long run than their 4-stroke equivalent. Given that, and where the E-Tec outperforms the HPDI ... the decision is easy IMHO.

This is the guy that said money was no object on another thread..

89 octane is over $3 gal. here and there is no 87 to be found on the water,,93 octane is .07-.10 gal higher..to a man who can say "money is no object" about his boat....don't think .10 gal will matter anyway :thumbsup:

Joe
07-22-2005, 09:56 AM
The mood this week seems to be pro Mercury.

I'd get the Merc then prepare in two weeks to be called really stupid for doing so.

Three Vs
07-22-2005, 09:57 AM
Evernic,
he looking to sell a 48 Viking and buy a top tier cc with trips as you said I don't think fuel cost is and issue :grin:

Glen E
07-22-2005, 09:59 AM
Vin's got it correct - go test both motors and decide - to me the F250 is a great MOTOR...but the 275 is a SYSTEM.....I like the smooth "snick" of shifting when docking instead of the annoying, archaic loud "CLUNK" by the yamaha....and the auto sync at any speed in less than a 1/10 of a second...

by the way we have many in our owners group (incl 3 V's) that have 275's. many run reg gas and can't tell a bit of difference...as the 275 generates 260 on reg gas all day long - and it's awful hard to feel 15 ponies per engine...

They were not avail to me at the time, but I would get the 275's just to have the 2-7-5 on the back of my cowl..but then again I'm a vain SOB and looks are very important to me here in the Fort Lauderdale world of big dog boats and astounding lookin women.. ..

Three Vs
07-22-2005, 10:00 AM
l

Whaler27
07-22-2005, 10:03 AM
Glen E - 7/22/2005 10:59 AM

Vin's got it correct - go test both motors and decide - to me the F250 is a great MOTOR...but the 275 is a SYSTEM.....I like the smooth "snick" of shifting when docking instead of the annoying, archaic loud "CLUNK" by the yamaha....and the auto sync at any speed in less than a 1/10 of a second...

by the way we have many in our owners group (incl 3 V's) that have 275's. many run reg gas and can't tell a bit of difference...as the 275 generates 260 on reg gas all day long - and it's awful hard to feel 15 ponies per engine...

They were not avail to me at the time, but I would get the 275's just to have the 2-7-5 on the back of my cowl..but then again I'm a vain SOB and looks are very important to me here in the Fort Lauderdale world of big dog boats and astounding lookin women.. ..

Why spend the extra bucks on the 275 if its hardly better than the 250 on regular gas? ;? Just invest in in a can of black paint to paint over the "50", and a can of white paint and a stencil kit to put in a "75" after the "2". Nobody will know the difference except you. :grin:

ngirolamo
07-22-2005, 10:05 AM
All I can Say is I love my F250.. Solid, Quiet, Very Little Vibration, and meets all my power requirements. Lets not get caught up in the octane discussions fellows. Its really not a factor in the purchace process if the truth be told...My motor has been reliable so far. :thumbsup: Have not been around many Verados so i cant comment. ;?

Glen E
07-22-2005, 10:46 AM
Whaler27 - 7/22/2005 11:03 AM

Glen E - 7/22/2005 10:59 AM

Vin's got it correct - go test both motors and decide - to me the F250 is a great MOTOR...but the 275 is a SYSTEM.....I like the smooth "snick" of shifting when docking instead of the annoying, archaic loud "CLUNK" by the yamaha....and the auto sync at any speed in less than a 1/10 of a second...

by the way we have many in our owners group (incl 3 V's) that have 275's. many run reg gas and can't tell a bit of difference...as the 275 generates 260 on reg gas all day long - and it's awful hard to feel 15 ponies per engine...

They were not avail to me at the time, but I would get the 275's just to have the 2-7-5 on the back of my cowl..but then again I'm a vain SOB and looks are very important to me here in the Fort Lauderdale world of big dog boats and astounding lookin women.. ..

Why spend the extra bucks on the 275 if its hardly better than the 250 on regular gas? ;? Just invest in in a can of black paint to paint over the "50", and a can of white paint and a stencil kit to put in a "75" after the "2". Nobody will know the difference except you. :grin:

oh no... everyone would know the diffrence when I got thru with it... - it would b akin to makin a radar arch outta 2 x 4's - not exactly factory spec.... ;) ;) ;)

Shin-Dig
07-22-2005, 10:47 AM
A Yamaha rep told me that they plan to introduce fly by wire shifting in 2006-we will see

Three Vs
07-22-2005, 10:53 AM
eric f - 7/22/2005 10:47 AM

A Yamaha rep told me that they plan to introduce fly by wire shifting in 2006-we will see


as well as a 300 four stroke :thumbsup: Then things could get real interesting...

nsh
07-22-2005, 11:00 AM
What is "fly by wire shifting" Is it electric shifting. No shift cables. If so seems to be a great feature. What about the throttles. Are they electicly controlled? They must be if they have auto sync. I had mentioned in a earlier thread that manufactures should incorporate this into their multiple engine setups. Seems like merc is ahead of the rest with this feature. Now why cant evinrude do this and get with the ball game?

Glen E
07-22-2005, 11:10 AM
I'm sure Yam will have fly by wire soon..it works too good for them not to add it...people are screaming for it after they use it....

Honestly, I would have to question what will happen at Yamaha if they start to have a major problem with any new technology. In the recent past, they have told all the 300/250 HPDI owners that it was their fault, they did not have the problem and just stonewalled everyone while they figured out what to do.

On the other hand , Merc seems to realize that the Verado must work and seems to be going out of their way to make sure everyone is happy. I met several of their execs at the Miami show 3 years ago after owning a set of opti's and we started talking about the upcoming Verado. They did not know me from Adam, I had no "ins" with them. To this day, three execs email me about every 45 days and give me info on what they are doing and experiencing across the US. Two dealers also report to me that Merc will warranty anything at the drop of a hat if the customer or dealer wants something replaced....

that's why I like Merc - AT THIS TIME...they really want to see their customers happy. I do not argue that it may not have been like that in the past but it's that way now. Yam still thinks their customers are stupid and engage in product abuse, IMO....so we'll see if they learned some humility after the big-block fiasco....I have a frined that is a fac exec in the motorcyle division of Yam and when I discussed with him the situation, his only comment was "the marine guys are a group unto themselves in Yam"..so I think it's a few individuals that are causing this stomewalling arrogance....

Glen E
07-22-2005, 11:23 AM
nsh - 7/22/2005 12:00 PM

What is "fly by wire shifting" Is it electric shifting. No shift cables. If so seems to be a great feature. What about the throttles. Are they electicly controlled? They must be if they have auto sync. I had mentioned in a earlier thread that manufactures should incorporate this into their multiple engine setups. Seems like merc is ahead of the rest with this feature. Now why cant evinrude do this and get with the ball game?

DTS explained:

http://www.mercurymarine.com/digital_throttle_and_shift_dts

fichtion
07-22-2005, 11:25 AM
Be careful I know someone who had a merc and it blew up.

I also know someone who knew someone who had cousin who's boss had a yamaha that blew up.

Why do people want to be told what to do?

I appreciate asking for advice from people who have the same boat, engine and learning from them. But these general comparison posts are a waste of time.

iFishMD
07-22-2005, 11:37 AM
I have DTS with my Opti and I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!

Three Vs
07-22-2005, 11:38 AM
When looking for advice on any purchse four things could possibly happen. Letís look at these four and only four options. If you said YES and the third party said YES, then the answer would be YES, correct? Now if your say NO, and they say NO, then the answer would be NO, correct again? If you say NO, I donít want this product, and they said YES, you should have it, the answer would be NO. If you said YES, I really want the product, and they said NO, I donít think itís a good idea, but you really wanted the product, the answer would be YES.

fichtion
07-22-2005, 11:45 AM
Ouch, that hurt the comprehension part of my little brain.

southland
07-22-2005, 12:52 PM
As brand loyal as we all are (I have a yammie), if we are truely honest, at this point in the game all the mfgs make a good product but they all have their fair share of problems. Which is best? It's the one YOU feel best about. Me personaly I would look at the 250 E-Tec, I still wonder how the blower in the Merc will hold up after several years of use. Also w/ the price of gas still going up, what is premium going to cost in another year? Now I know cost may not be an issue but (most) people with money, have money because they spend wisely. But if the 275 hanging on the back of a transom is what make your "boat float" buy it and enjoy :thumbsup:

offshore1218
07-22-2005, 12:54 PM
power to wieght ratio. with multiple engines the verado is no better than the 250 yamaha. verados are big heavy slobs. cheack your top speeds. if you want to plane that 1/3 of a second faster go ahead.
yamaha is just proven.

id go with the e tech if i had my choice-4 stoke clean, 2 stroke power

Buck Wild
07-22-2005, 01:05 PM
Yamaha has been testing the 'digital' stuff in Japan (market) for a while now. Word is it will be released to the US market in the 2006 models. They are going to have something similar to DTS and SmartCraft that Merc has had for a while now. By far Merc has the best 'outboard power system'. Everyone else is now playing catch-up to them. Although the Verado is bada$$ looking I don't think its the best 'motor' available. I really don't know who would hold that honor.First company to get a "real" 300 HP four stroke will get my attention. As long as it doesn't wastefully use gas.

nsh
07-22-2005, 01:57 PM
I only thought the verados had the electronic shifting and throttles. But from the article Glen provided it looks like other models have it as well. Personaly i like it. I would love to run a boat that has this. Again, why cant Evinrude catch up with these kinds of systems. Makes me want to go out and look at what else is avialable out there. I have not ordered my twin 250 E-Tecs as of yet. And for a dual station setup it looks like this would be the way to go. Much easier to rig out. Let me ask this for those of you running these systems. Does the throttle "drift" back. In other words do you constantly have to adjust the throttle because of drifting?

evernic
07-22-2005, 02:00 PM
nsh - 7/22/2005 1:57 PM

I only thought the verados had the electronic shifting and throttles. But from the article Glen provided it looks like other models have it as well. Personaly i like it. I would love to run a boat that has this. Again, why cant Evinrude catch up with these kinds of systems. Makes me want to go out and look at what else is avialable out there. I have not ordered my twin 250 E-Tecs as of yet. And for a dual station setup it looks like this would be the way to go. Much easier to rig out. Let me ask this for those of you running these systems. Does the throttle "drift" back. In other words do you constantly have to adjust the throttle because of drifting in the cables?

My understanding of the system is that there are no....cables..it's electronic :thumbsup:

Glen E
07-22-2005, 02:02 PM
toally concur that there is no "BEST" MOTOR out there...but we certainly knopw a few that are not working out!

it's all in what works for you - if I had a great realtionship with a Yam deealer and had done most of my life's business with them. I would buy Yamaha and be done with it...Sometimes it boils down to who is what the MBA retail experts call the "customer facing organization" (dealers)...

steveyacht
07-22-2005, 02:06 PM
I Had the opportunity to ride and run a couple of boats with the 275 Verados on them. One was a 33 with twins and the other a 38 with triple 275's. All I can say is, "incredible". The shifting is effortless. The power steering is a blessing around the docks. The SmartCraft gauges are neat. The DTS system is very nice, particularly the synchronizers. All that AND they are the quietest outboards I have (n)ever heard. If you are comparing an F250 to the Verado, do yourself a favor and compare directly to the 250 Verado. Or, if you do decide on the 275 and run 87 or 89 octane, you will still get 260 HP and all the other cool stuff that is part of the Verado Power System. :thumbsup:

Buck Wild
07-22-2005, 02:43 PM
nsh, if you are looking to have dual stations then without a doubt check out the Mercs. It will make your life a lot easier.I wonder why they didn't include some of these items in the E-Tec's now that its been mentioned? Seems they would have a real winner if they did.

The new gauges for the E-Tec are as good as Merc's but they just don't have a complete 'system'.

Wonder if Yamaha will included some type of power assisted steering in their future models?

Can't wait until the 2006 stuff starts coming out. Going to get my room reserved for Miami now. The next best thing to being out on a boat and fishing is to be out looking at boats and fishing stuff. :thumbsup:

flats392
07-22-2005, 03:44 PM
Glen E - 7/22/2005 10:59 AM

Vin's but the 275 is a SYSTEM.....


Everyone that owns a Verado says it is a COMPLETE SYSTEM....
But if I remember the OMC Sea Drive outboards they were marketed as "COMPLETE SYSTEM"
and the were not on the market for more the five years.

Do yourself a favor take a look at Suzuki 250

Fever Mike
07-22-2005, 05:41 PM
I am too skeptical of the super-charger used for the Verado...however I know of many cars and my father in-law has one that use super-chargers. He has a early 90's Buick Regal that has a super charger and has well over 100k and not a problem with the engine. I know boats work harder than cars but still!!!

What is the weight of the Yamaha F250 and the Verado 250? Does the Yamaha put out 250hp? I know the 2 stroke Yamaha 250 and 300 are know where near there claimed output.

I agree with some others...I would check out the 250hp E-Tech or the new for 2006 Mercury 250xs Opti now that it will run on 87-89 octane.

Eyehooker
07-22-2005, 06:54 PM
Sooner or later people are going to run out reasons to Bash Merc's new " System"--- whether you like it or not Merc hit a home run!!! Yes, the testing took over xxxx hours paid off!!! They run GREAT and it " The system works" !-- Yes, I looked at Etec--- why not 7 year warranty--- I have been BLACK and not going Back!--- Sorry SUZY-- paint ain't the same

roaddogg4040
07-22-2005, 07:29 PM
NSH

The throttles do not creep back at all. You just set em and forget em... :)

Steve

Glen E
07-22-2005, 07:37 PM
There is another advantage to verado that most people miss - the electro hydraulic power steering - pure dual cylinder hydraulic is approx 7 turns lock to lock - verado is 4 turns lock to lock with one finger - very responsive and when you take your hands off the wheel at speed, it mostly stays in place as the power keeps it in the same spot...kinda like semi-AP...enuf that at troll with calm seas it stays dead on target...

Whaler27
07-23-2005, 06:29 AM
Eyehooker - 7/22/2005 7:54 PM

Sooner or later people are going to run out reasons to Bash Merc's new " System"--- whether you like it or not Merc hit a home run!!! Yes, the testing took over xxxx hours paid off!!! They run GREAT and it " The system works" !-- Yes, I looked at Etec--- why not 7 year warranty--- I have been BLACK and not going Back!--- Sorry SUZY-- paint ain't the same

Calling it an unqualified homerun is going a bit far in my book. If it did everything well, then OK, but it really doesn't. Like everything in boating, it represents just another set of compromises. For example, to get ultra quiet, you got to take on an extra weight and a scale that in some cases is just too big for some transoms. To get close to 2-stroke torque and speed, you got to burn more fuel beginning right at the cusp of the upper end of the cruising range. It's more complex than anything before it so it requires significant investment in a new level of product support which will make it more expensive to maintain over the long run as some dealers have shown an unwillingness to make the investment necessary to support the product thereby reducing the supply of qualified service centers and reducing competition.

Rather, it would be fair to call it an unqualified home run if they had managed to come obtain a power to weight ratio in the 2-stroke neighborhood, the fuel burn of a DI 2-stroke or naturally aspirated 4-stroke across the entire operating range, the absolute bottom end torque of a 2-stroke and it showed durability over a fair number of consumer seasons (its barely been in consumers hands for more than a season now) in different operating environments (north and south). It would also have to be as easy and no more cost to maintain than that which came before it.

It appears to be a good product but its not a homerun. An example of a home run system product in my book is the iPod/iTunes system. The product has essentially no limitations.

CTBob
07-23-2005, 07:17 AM
Interesting comment about the Yamaha going to a cableless system in 06. My new rig came with one 05 F250 and an 06. The 06 is the counter rotating motor. Under the cover they are identical. Wonder if all F250's will be adaptible to the rumored new system?

iFishMD
07-23-2005, 07:40 AM
Whaler27, The DTS and smartcraft system are also availible on the Optimax engine if you wish. It is not just limited to the verado.

Fever Mike
07-23-2005, 08:24 AM
So with weight in mind and the fact that usually 89 octane is the only fuel to be found on the west coast of Florida which engine would you pick for a Fountain38TE style of boat? The 225 Optimax or the 250 or 275 Verado? Seeing that all the mentioned engines run on DTS and smart craft!

Does anyone know the release date of the 250xs Opti that runs on 87 octane?

Three Vs
07-23-2005, 09:13 AM
Fever Mike,

It all depends on what you are looking for in the 38te. You will get better gas with the 250xs and due to weight you can strap four on the back. The Verado is a much quitter motor and with trips will still give you a higher top speed than the 250xs. Then you can look into resale with 2 vs 4 and, power steering which is fantastic, so far so good with reliability...When presented with this very same decision, the overall comfort of the verado during long runs helped me pull the trigger. :thumbsup:

Three Vs
07-23-2005, 09:18 AM
flats392 - 7/22/2005 3:44 PM

Glen E - 7/22/2005 10:59 AM

Vin's but the 275 is a SYSTEM.....


Everyone that owns a Verado says it is a COMPLETE SYSTEM....
But if I remember the OMC Sea Drive outboards they were marketed as "COMPLETE SYSTEM"
and the were not on the market for more the five years.

Do yourself a favor take a look at Suzuki 250




It seems there is less and less of you around...I guess, because the verado is doing what its supposed to do the haters are being silenced. BTW, I took a zuke guy out for a ride last week from Cambridge to Annapolis and back about 2 1/2hr run(he owns a 35 intrepid with twin 250fours) I cant count how many "OH MY GODS" where being thrown around his face :o just have to come the dark side flats once you go black....

iFishMD
07-23-2005, 09:51 AM
Fever Mike, The Verado is much more refined than the Opti. It has a lot less vibration and is a lot more quiet. It also has the power steering that others have spoke of (not sure if it is availible with the Opti-I have the teleflex hydrolic steering). I personally went with the opti because I was directly comparing it to a Yammie F225, which was close in cost. The DTS, power of the Opti over the 225 Yammie (single on a 25'er), and the less maintainence of a 2 stroke was the major deciding factors for me personally. A friend who is in the business and test rides boats all the time told me the Verado is the most amazing engine has has ever seen (he owns a Yammie too). The Verados are quite a bit more than the Opti (at least the 225 Opti compared to the 250 verado, especially when you consider rigging). However, when you are talking about a 38' Fountain it is probably small money. Should the Verados also prove to stand the test of time, I am sure they will also help in resale value. The Optis are great engines and at this point have proven their reliability. I have been told by my dealer that the Optis will offer a better MPG and the 225 Opti has every bit of the punch of the 250 Verado. I have no direct comparison so it is all hearsay at this point.

In other words, being the cost of the boat you are considering you will probably be better served with a verado if the boat can handle the weight well. To my understanding the 275 will run on 89, you just sacrifice hp. Not sure I buy this though, especially considering the engine has forced induction. I would think that you would have to adjust timing for it not to stress the engine over time if it is tuned for at least 91 octane. I am sure the 250 will offer adequate performance. Sea trials will tell (and offer you more than any advice here).

Joe
07-23-2005, 10:11 AM
I do like the idea of having a "fly by wire" shifter/throttle. I imagine it is pretty smooth.

Glen E
07-23-2005, 10:48 AM
I would agree with whaler 27 - it is not an unqualified home run - just an engineering appalication that does what it was designed to do. There are a few things I don't like about them: weight and size and high end gph. The verado was deisigned however, to emulate a large MB 6, BMW 7 series ot Lexus 430 : to be the smoothest, quietest application of high hp on the road/water. Just like those 3 cars, it is very complicated, big and heavy.

It's not for all people, just those with big boats that want yacht like operation. I have noticed the same thing about my 7 as the Verados - when I go long distance, I am still amamzingly refreshed when I arrive due to lack of NVH (noise -vibration-harshness). For that I'll pay the larger gas bill....

and as far as reliability, I'm not worried - the verado is massively overbuilt - I have been told by a merc that by modifying the boost and software they have got 535 hp out of a 275 and everything held together except the lower end. That's where the R&D is going on now.....the supercharger is specifiaclly made for marine applications - the forst of it's kind - it is double teflon coated running delrin bearing - it's not a complicated piece of hardware and presents no "weak spot" in the engineering application.

I think the more interesting question is what will the mid-range verados do? This segment is more weight concious to go on smaller boats and the range is full of great choices. I can't see where the verado is a clear winner just by having DTS....it better have a clearly superior hole shot or it will find itself against tough competition....

scott-hydra24
07-23-2005, 08:22 PM
What's there to bash in the Verado's? I was looking at one today hanging off the back of a small Trophy thinking that boat was absolutely zoom with a 225 Veroad on the back.

It is one menacing looking motor.



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