The Boating Forum - 50 hp two stroke vs. 50 hp four stroke

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clarkt
04-20-2005, 01:18 PM
I have an opportunity to buy a new 2004 50 hp Johnson 2 stroke for $2000 less than a 50 HP Honda 4 stroke for my 16 foot aluminium fishing boat.
Is the sale price for the Johnson worth the loss is gas consumption? Does anyone have experience with gas comparison usage for smaller HP engines?


phillipj1
04-20-2005, 01:23 PM
I have a Johnson 50 on a skiff and it sips gas. Very efficient
with only 2 cylanders.

Of course I am comparing to 175 on an offshore boat, but
I dont think that mileage is that much of an issue in this HP
range. WHat really differenciates these motors is noise and
weight. DOnt think I need to mention which one is better
respectively.

JP

tightwads
04-20-2005, 04:43 PM
I VERY seriously doubt that you would EVER manage to recoup $2000 in gas... unless you run the thing night and day 365 a year. Even if the two stroke burned 50% more gas (unlikely) ... if your average trip burned $5 of gas with the 4 stroke, you would only burn $7.5 in gas with the 2 stroke... that's $2.5 per trip. If you ran 3 days a week for 35 weeks a year (I really doubt you're using it this much... but just for the sake of argument)... that's $262.5 a year in additional gas cost... or to put it differently, it would take you over 7.5 years to recoup the engine cost in gas. If you took that $2000 you saved initially and socked it into some form of investment, it should have approximately doubled in 7 years.... so you're STILL $2000 out of pocket (theoretically). ok... I didn't include the cost of the oil you'll burn... but the point is that you're financially better off with the two stroke if there's a $2000 difference in price.

Given the fact that the 2 stroke is likely a bit lighter... if you can stand the increased noise, I'd say get the 2 stroke. If noise is a major factor in your decision, get the 4 stroke.

Luis


clarkt - 4/20/2005 1:18 PM
I have an opportunity to buy a new 2004 50 hp Johnson 2 stroke for $2000 less than a 50 HP Honda 4 stroke for my 16 foot aluminium fishing boat.
Is the sale price for the Johnson worth the loss is gas consumption? Does anyone have experience with gas comparison usage for smaller HP engines?


Scali62
04-20-2005, 04:46 PM
get the freaking E TEC, best of both worlds or so they claim :)

jethro1
04-20-2005, 04:58 PM
Another consideration is, how much do you care about the environment? My next engine will be a four stroke for that reason. The reduced fuel burn, not having to add oil, etc are all bonus'. I doubt I will live long enough to see the time when we don't have to deal with oil scum on the sides of our boats, but maybe. I hear a lot of talk about reduced air emissions but is anyone checking or concerned about oil in the water?

ko
04-20-2005, 07:21 PM
Check the price of a Tohatsu 50 TLDI. It is direct injection 2-stroke. No smoke, great mileage, very reliable.

ShellbackCVA59
04-20-2005, 07:23 PM
I replaced a Mercury 50HP 2 stroke with a Honda 50HP. The Honda 50HP was the same weight as the Merc. Honda's 50 is the lightest 4 stroke on the market, just over 200#'s. It probably burns half the gas that the Merc did. Now gas savings sure ain't going to make up $2000 in price difference, but that Honda is worth all of that $2000 for pleasure I've had of owning and running it. Quiet as a mouse and smoke free, something that Johnson can't compare with. I'd honestly have to say that the Honda has improved my, and my wife's boating pleasure by 300%! Mercury has stopped production on 2 stroke carb and EFI motors, everythings gonna be Optimax, or 4 stroke. Bombardier, owner of Evinrude and Johnson is betting it all on the new Etec, and I think you will see Johnson go by the wayside.

Scali62
04-20-2005, 08:00 PM
One thing I dont get is the " smoke free thing ", I run pre mix 75 - 1 & oil inj. on my Merc & smoke is never an issue .
You get a puff of smoke when you start her up, then the smoke issue is behind you, literally once you knock it in gear & head out ;?
Never in my 30 years of boating have i thought " man this 2 stroke smoke is killing me "
Dont mean to hijack the thread, just had to get this in :)

Nootka
04-20-2005, 11:31 PM
Usually the guy driving the big honking Diesel Tractor Trailer also wonders what everyone's issue with the black soot he is belching since it is the people behind him that are breathing it. Go 4-Stroke, I replaced a 70-Stroke Mercury with a 50-Yamaha. Not only does it save fuel, I have to carry less so there is more room in the boat. At $70-$90 an hour Shop rates, the reliability of the 4-Stroke over time is also a consideration. Oil Changes, Leg Oil and Spark Plugs are all home mechanic projects. What is 2-Stoke Oil going for now, I'm sure the manufacturers brands are pricey? That too adds to your cost every tank while the 2 quarts in the 4-Stroke last 100 hours.

Scali62
04-21-2005, 08:41 AM
40 trips a season with my 2 stroke 40 HP outboard makes me enviornmently unfriendly ;?
You think diesel tractor trailers can be compared to a 2 stroke outboard, have you been bombarded with 2 stroke smoke while cruising behind one ?
Etec is a 2 stroke puts out much less then 4 strokes with no valve trains & extra weight, 4 strokes arent the best thingb since sliced bread.
The oil debate doesnt hold up, Oil cost me 10 bucks a gallon & the 4 stroke oil changes make that a wash
:)
The problem with smaller 4 stroke outboards like the 50 HP this guys considering theyre too heavy for 13' Boston Whalers & other skiffs..
Oh well, my 2 cents

Capt Flats
04-21-2005, 09:12 AM
I'd go two stroke even without a price bonus! Better engine, more power, more dependable, lighter, etc. It may be "politically correct" to pay "through the nose" for future mechanical problems with the four strokes but, a two stroke 50 will be bullet proof.

You have a specific choice of a Johnson in front of you but, if that goes away, look at the Nissan/Tohatsu 50hp two stroke, three cylinder!

Capt Flats
04-21-2005, 09:14 AM
I'd go two stroke even without a price bonus! Better engine, more power, more dependable, lighter, etc. It may be "politically correct" to pay "through the nose" for future mechanical problems with the four strokes but, a two stroke 50 will be bullet proof.

You have a specific choice in front of you but, if that goes away, look at the Nissan/Tohatsu 50hp two stroke, three cylinder!

:thumbsup:

jethro1
04-21-2005, 09:28 AM
"40 trips a season with my 2 stroke 40 HP outboard makes me enviornmently unfriendly"


Mulltiplied by millions of your friends, the answer is yes! The oil from a four stroke can be recycled. The oil from a two stroke either is burned and goes into the air, or is unburned and goes into the water.

I have a two stroke EFI and yes, I get bombarded with oil smoke on start up, while sitting still or while trolling downwind.

The problem is not so much with one or two two-stroke motors. The problem is that there are so many of them. Too many people on this earth is the real problem but it is politically uncorrect to discuss this.

Joe
04-21-2005, 10:25 AM
jethro1 - 4/21/2005 9:28 AM

"40 trips a season with my 2 stroke 40 HP outboard makes me enviornmently unfriendly"


Mulltiplied by millions of your friends, the answer is yes! The oil from a four stroke can be recycled. The oil from a two stroke either is burned and goes into the air, or is unburned and goes into the water.

I have a two stroke EFI and yes, I get bombarded with oil smoke on start up, while sitting still or while trolling downwind.

The problem is not so much with one or two two-stroke motors. The problem is that there are so many of them. Too many people on this earth is the real problem but it is politically uncorrect to discuss this.

Wel..actually ALL of the oil gets burned, even the reccyled stuff. It goes to power boilers and is mixed in with the coal during start up or peak times.

And from above, yes I have been in my boat and said "man this 2 stroke smoke is killing me."

I'll never own another 2 stroke again. Gas is expensive enough. Why pay for oil too every time i crank it up?

nsh
04-21-2005, 10:47 AM
jethro1 - 4/21/2005 8:28 AM"40 trips a season with my 2 stroke 40 HP outboard makes me enviornmently unfriendly"Mulltiplied by millions of your friends, the answer is yes! The oil from a four stroke can be recycled. The oil from a two stroke either is burned and goes into the air, or is unburned and goes into the water.I have a two stroke EFI and yes, I get bombarded with oil smoke on start up, while sitting still or while trolling downwind.The problem is not so much with one or two two-stroke motors. The problem is that there are so many of them. Too many people on this earth is the real problem but it is politically uncorrect to discuss this.


Then why is it that some of the current 2 strokes are emmitting less emmissions than your 4 stroke. There are larger emmission problems to worry about other than a few 2 stroke outboards smoking.

Scali62
04-21-2005, 11:38 AM
Sure many pressure injected & E TEC 2 strokes are polluting less then those bulky 4 strokes.
:)

ParkerSharker
04-21-2005, 11:47 AM
I have a honda 4s 50hp on an aluminum 16.5 skiff . It is the best motor I have ever owned. I have run it wot at 46mph, and trolled for hours and hours at 2mph. No smoke, no chatter, burps, stalls- NO noise. In fact, when I first got it, I used to start it while it was running, thinking it had crapped out. Its great on gas, as well. Pay the difference and enjoy your experiences on the water to the fullest.

SeaJay
04-21-2005, 11:50 AM
"how much do you care about the environment?"

If we want to go down that road then we should all trade in our power boats for the ones that run on sails or paddles. Many of us are burning 100 or more gallons of fuel a trip. Newer motors of course better than older ones, but they are all fuel hogs when you think about it.

Scali62
04-21-2005, 11:52 AM
& another thing, those 4 strokes are so quiet, you go through expensive starter motors by cranking while there running :)
sorry couldnt resist ;)

Seacat FL
04-21-2005, 11:57 AM
jethro1 - 4/21/2005 9:28 AM

"40 trips a season with my 2 stroke 40 HP outboard makes me enviornmently unfriendly"


Mulltiplied by millions of your friends, the answer is yes! The oil from a four stroke can be recycled. The oil from a two stroke either is burned and goes into the air, or is unburned and goes into the water.

I have a two stroke EFI and yes, I get bombarded with oil smoke on start up, while sitting still or while trolling downwind.

The problem is not so much with one or two two-stroke motors. The problem is that there are so many of them. Too many people on this earth is the real problem but it is politically uncorrect to discuss this.

:rofl:
You have a two stroke efi and you are lecturing others that they should be concerned about the environment?

Get a 4 Stroke or DFI yourself before telling others what they should do.

nsh
04-21-2005, 12:30 PM
SeaJay - 4/21/2005 10:50 AM"how much do you care about the environment?"If we want to go down that road then we should all trade in our power boats for the ones that run on sails or paddles. .

No way am i getting a diaper draping blow boat.:grin::grin::grin:

jethro1
04-21-2005, 01:44 PM
"You have a two stroke efi and you are lecturing others that they should be concerned about the environment?"

My comment wasn't a lecture, it was a question. My next motor will be a four stroke for a number of reasons. Just one happens to be that it is more environmentally friendly. Will it still pollute? Absolutely. But, I will do what little I can to not make such a mess in the environment. Feel free not to share this position if you wish.

Seacat FL
04-21-2005, 02:04 PM
jethro1 - 4/21/2005 1:44 PM

"You have a two stroke efi and you are lecturing others that they should be concerned about the environment?"

My comment wasn't a lecture, it was a question. My next motor will be a four stroke for a number of reasons. Just one happens to be that it is more environmentally friendly. Will it still pollute? Absolutely. But, I will do what little I can to not make such a mess in the environment. Feel free not to share this position if you wish.

******************
I get tired of "environmentalists" asking others to do that which they have not done themselves. BTW I own a 4 stroke..

Jimm
04-21-2005, 02:16 PM
jethro1 - 4/20/2005 4:58 PM

Another consideration is, how much do you care about the environment? My next engine will be a four stroke for that reason. The reduced fuel burn, not having to add oil, etc are all bonus'. I doubt I will live long enough to see the time when we don't have to deal with oil scum on the sides of our boats, but maybe. I hear a lot of talk about reduced air emissions but is anyone checking or concerned about oil in the water?

A friend of mine just came back from extensive travel in Asia/Africa. They are doing NOTHING to change the environment. Anything we do is just a drop in the bucket; we're light years ahead on clean and green. :mad:

phillipj1
04-21-2005, 02:39 PM
ShellbackCVA59 - 4/20/2005 6:23 PM

I replaced a Mercury 50HP 2 stroke with a Honda 50HP.... It probably burns half the gas that the Merc did. ....

No doubt the Honda is a nice O/B, but the fuel useage difference will
be minimal compared to the Johnson becuse its a 2 cylander (Merc=3)
and is particularly miserly on fuel. Ask anyone who owns one.

JP

nsh
04-21-2005, 02:41 PM
Well, you know how it is Jimm. It is up to the ole US of A to solve all of the worlds problems. Outboards included..

Seacat FL
04-21-2005, 02:51 PM
phillipj1 - 4/21/2005 2:39 PM

ShellbackCVA59 - 4/20/2005 6:23 PM

I replaced a Mercury 50HP 2 stroke with a Honda 50HP.... It probably burns half the gas that the Merc did. ....

No doubt the Honda is a nice O/B, but the fuel useage difference will
be minimal compared to the Johnson becuse its a 2 cylander (Merc=3)
and is particularly miserly on fuel. Ask anyone who owns one.

JP
*********************
The number of cylinders does not relate to the fuel mileage.

SCAngler
04-21-2005, 05:10 PM
getting back to your original question....i would go with the johnson...the honda is one fine engine but you will sell the boat before you get 2000 dollars worth of gas savings.if money is not an object then look at the honda

jwss
04-21-2005, 05:56 PM
Honda 50 owner since 1996. Ran all Mercury 2 strokes before that. Wow! what a change. Maybe the gas money will never equal the cost of the Honda but talk about the enjoyment of your time on the water factor. Want a motor that starts and runs like a modern car? Get the Honda. Mine still runs like a top. I run it on a big 20 aluminum skiff and it burns about half the gas my two stroke 25 Mercury did on a much smaller skiff. When I first got it I couldn't believe the fuel economy. It is also extremely easy to service and that includes the feared valve adjusments. I'll pay the $2000 and jump on the Honda in a heart beat.

ShellbackCVA59
04-21-2005, 08:14 PM
Taking about 50HP outboards here, cost of fuel really isn't a big deal. It ain't like we're running a pair of 454's on a 4 hour trip. I've had 2 four stroke outboards, a 30HP Merc and the 50HP Honda I have now. I am completely and forever sold on the 4 strokes. I can't comment on the new Etec or the Optimax as I've never been around them, but as far as the carb 2 strokes, you couldn't give me one now. Well you could give me one, but I'd trade it on a 4 stroke. There are alot of fellows that are plenty happy with them, they just ain't for me.

ShellbackCVA59
04-21-2005, 08:14 PM
Taking about 50HP outboards here, cost of fuel really isn't a big deal. It ain't like we're running a pair of 454's on a 4 hour trip. I've had 2 four stroke outboards, a 30HP Merc and the 50HP Honda I have now. I am completely and forever sold on the 4 strokes. I can't comment on the new Etec or the Optimax as I've never been around them, but as far as the carb 2 strokes, you couldn't give me one now. Well you could give me one, but I'd trade it on a 4 stroke. There are alot of fellows that are plenty happy with them, they just ain't for me.

ShellbackCVA59
04-21-2005, 08:15 PM
Taking about 50HP outboards here, cost of fuel really isn't a big deal. It ain't like we're running a pair of 454's on a 4 hour trip. I've had 2 four stroke outboards, a 30HP Merc and the 50HP Honda I have now. I am completely and forever sold on the 4 strokes. I can't comment on the new Etec or the Optimax as I've never been around them, but as far as the carb 2 strokes, you couldn't give me one now. Well you could give me one, but I'd trade it on a 4 stroke. There are alot of fellows that are plenty happy with them, they just ain't for me.

clarkt
04-23-2005, 09:11 PM
Thank-you for your comments. The replies seem to be 50.50.

I checked out the weight and surprisingly the Johnson 2stroke and Yamaha 4 stroke come in at 202lbs and 198 lbs respectively.

If I go with the 2 stroke what do you think the parts availability/service will be in say 10 years for the Johnson?

northernblue
04-23-2005, 10:59 PM
ShellbackCVA59 - 4/22/2005 10:15 AM
...but as far as the carb 2 strokes, you couldn't give me one now. .

I think this is the real point of the thread.

I've got an Etec and it's great :) The Honda 4s in particullar are well regarded.

Why would anyone consider a new carb 2s in this day and age? ;?
Smoke, noise, fuel ecconomy environmental issues [unburned fuel/oil], I know that I would never go back to a carb 2s.

Your only issue should be, is the technology proven enough for your peace of mind? Most of the 4s are very reliable and the lack of problems with the Etec technology in particular speaks volumes

Nootka
04-24-2005, 12:07 AM
My Yamaha 4 Stroke is going into year 9. As I am selling the boat, the motor is what garners the most interest, it is still in great shape and does not need parts and they are readily available. The motor still runs perfectly and has never required service. All the cost issues aside if you were buying a 8-10 year old boat and motor and had the choice between 2-Stroke or 4-Stroke, what would you buy? Judging by the interest and comments I have heard it is the 4-Stroke hands down. So what you pay now is also an investment into the future value of your boat.

Seawolf2
04-24-2005, 11:19 AM
The issue in selecting a 50HP engine is not whether to select 2 or 4 stroke. The issue is ascertaining that it comes with fuel injection. In the US carburators will die by the end of the year, because of pollution regulations. There are a few Japanese made 4 strokes with fuel injection, some of those are also sold under an American name. Be careful however, because I still see ads of same HP engines from the same manufacturer, offering a choice between carburator and injection. Also, you don't mention if you are using it in salt water, because Evinrude has a 2 stroke E-Tec that is fresh water only.

You can't go wrong with the 50HP Yamaha.



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