Dockside Chat - Death Penalty?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18091903

Take a look at the above link and let me know what you think of the death penalty. I'm curious how problems like what are depicted in this article can be resolved.

I never thought I would say this but I am against the death penalty for just this reason. If one innocent man is put to death we have failed as a society and the legal system has failed

Cracker makes a valid point that can't be argued by a sane society. However, that point is taken as a social issue, and would be absolutely true IF it were just that simple.

Money comes into play, and then Numbers get included...and then Society adds to the mix.

When the legal system is so very expensive that giving somebody the death penalty is not as cheap as giving them Life in prison...we as a society are off our rockers.

Actuarials have odds for everybody. Why is it that cops have a X% chance of getting killed on the job, and I have an X% chance of getting killed by a pit bull? We ALL have a chance of dying....so why make the argument that somebody in the legal system should have no chance of error?

With tens of thousands on death row, if a few are killed by mistake, why is that so almighty terrible when they might have died of a car wreck if they were free?

Please, liberal hotties...don't bash me for suggesting that free people getting killed by society is alright.......it's the society that created this conundrum.

I'm surely not a liberal as I'm a gun owning, NRA type, anti-tree hugger person but I have great respect for the founders of our Country and what they designed regarding our American legal system. For example, Benjamin Franklin said that "it is better [one hundred] guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer." I don't know the answer but I think it is simply wrong to execute an innocent person and if a legal system can't ensure with certainty that such a mistake won't happen, then it shouldn't have a death penalty until such time as it can make such assurances.

I agree,but most people who are falsley accused/convicted where rarley just some innocent person walking down the road.most where in and out of prison's there whole life,not all but alot

I am strongly for the death penalty, so much so I think there should be a hell of alot more put to death. But when you see or read about things like this, it just makes me lose all faith in the justice system. This is a 25 yr old case, and I'm not trying to diminish what happened, but I think with the technology and DNA testing we have today, things like this won't happen. Then again, I guess someone could mislabel some DNA test.

I am against the death penalty. That said, I believe there are crimes that people deserve to die for. I would be Pro death penalty if we could resolve two issues

1) Money buys justice in this country. The playing field is simply not level, and a wealthy defendant will always have the edge over a poor one. When we take someones life, that is simply not acceptable.

2) We KNOW that innocent people get put away. Not often, but it happens. DNA is exonerating people at an alarming rate. It is bad when we have to apologize to an inmate when he is set free. It is not acceptable when we have put that person to death.


Believe I am not soft on crime, but we simply do not have a system that works well enough to put people to death.

With tens of thousands on death row, if a few are killed by mistake, why is that so almighty terrible when they might have died of a car wreck if they were free?.

Bama, Trying to get my head around this one. You logic seems to justify some scary stuff. Maybe I am not understanding your point. Its OK to for the government to kill them, cause they may have died anyway?

There are about 3200 people on death row in the US

I never thought I would say this but I am against the death penalty for just this reason. If one innocent man is put to death we have failed as a society and the legal system has failed

The death penalty is a great deterrent to all heinous crimes and the numbers don't lie.States that have Capital punishment have lower crime rates. States that are not anti gun have lower crime rates. Why ? Because criminals never know who's packing or whether or not they will get killed if they target the wrong person. There are more innocent people put to death by thugs on a daily basis than there are absorbing our tax dollars on death row. We have a serious issue in society today IMO The sense of entitlement today among people is just mind boggling to me. It is almost impossible to hold anyone accountable for anything today. I was brought up in a way that I was taught foe example; Here is how it's done here If you don't like it go elsewhere. Enough of my rant but if one innocent person ends up put to death and as a result the country is a safer place as a result and 100 less innocent people are killed living there daily lives.... I'm ok with it and any rational person should too. :thumbsup:

Believe I am not soft on crime, but we simply do not have a system that works well enough to put people to death.

Hate to break it to you but innocent people are killed everyday by scumbags. Not to mention the painfully lives lived by the victims of sex abuse etc. Is justice for them not important? Go to a superior court house in a major inner city and sit in a courtroom for a couple days. It's sobering.

Bama, Trying to get my head around this one. You logic seems to justify some scary stuff. Maybe I am not understanding your point. Its OK to for the government to kill them, cause they may have died anyway?

There are about 3200 people on death row in the US

What Bama must be saying is you might as well take Bama out behind the barn and shoot him because he might be driving down the street someday and have a car accident and die anyway.. Why wake up every morning knowing that a car might run you over someday by a 16yo punk.

I never thought I would say this but I am against the death penalty for just this reason. If one innocent man is put to death we have failed as a society and the legal system has failed

Yes...but it it is failed in the other direction too. When death row inmates die of natural causes because the process allows them to appeal for decades (and cost the gov literally millions of dollars) then clearly there are some problems.

The judicial system needs an overhaul.

We should start by quickly exterminating those that plead guilty to a crime that carries a death sentence. After that we can talk about multiple witnesses and DNA.

Hate to break it to you but innocent people are killed everyday by scumbags. Not to mention the painfully lives lived by the victims of sex abuse etc. Is justice for them not important? Go to a superior court house in a major inner city and sit in a courtroom for a couple days. It's sobering.


I am aware that innocent people get killed every day. My point is that executing innocent people does not address their suffering. In fact, by executing or imprisoning the wrong person, you are very likely to ADD to the suffering. if the wrong guy is in prison of dead, then the right guy is on the street. Good chance they are still committing crimes.

As far as going down to the court house, Great point. I actually spent 6 weeks on a federal jury. We got it right, but I have to tell you, the 4 days we spent deliberating where an eye opener. How we could all sit through the same trial and come to the conclusions we did was a little horrifying. We all had an equal vote, but good lord it was tough getting people to deliberate in a thoughtful manner.

I would be interested to see some specific data that show how the death penalty acts as a deterrent. I tend to agree with you on the CW states having lower crime rate, but just don't know about the Death Penalty impact on crime. Does a scumbag really do the mental math (If I commit this heinous crime i may get the death penalty vs I may get life in prison). I simply don't know.

I would be interested to see some specific data that show how the death penalty acts as a deterrent.

Don't know about a deterrent but the rate of recidivism if 0%.:thumbsup:

Don't know about a deterrent but the rate of recidivism if 0%.:thumbsup:


Tough to argue that one :Q

Again, I believe that there are crimes that people deserve to die for.

In the interest if full disclosure, I am the biggest hypocrite there is. I would do everything I could to subvert the justice system if I was ever on a case where a father was on trial for killing the murderer/molester of his child. I guess that makes me anti death penalty, but pro vigilante justice. That is the definition of an indefensible position in my book.

Kind of undermines everything I say about the death penalty, but guess what, I can live with that.

While the facts CLAIMED in this case suggest a grevious error I think the death penalty is UNDER used. In the example linked there is nothing that should ahve sent this man to die, even life in prison gives a potentailly innocent man the chance to walk.

However when DNA, video, or other conclusive evidence clearly highlights the guilty......give 'em a month to say their goodbyes and flip the switch!!!!

Tough to argue that one :Q

Again, I believe that there are crimes that people deserve to die for.

In the interest if full disclosure, I am the biggest hypocrite there is. I would do everything I could to subvert the justice system if I was ever on a case where a father was on trial for killing the murderer/molester of his child. I guess that makes me anti death penalty, but pro vigilante justice. That is the definition of an indefensible position in my book.

Kind of undermines everything I say about the death penalty, but guess what, I can live with that.

I think we're all like that to some degree. We're human beings after all. On issues like this is really hard to present a reasoned argument without spilling over into an emotional argument.

Yes, it's terrible that an innocent man was executed for a crime he didn't commit, but flawed police work shouldn't be justification to take the death penalty off the books.

Sounds like the guy in the article was convicted by circumstantial evidence, maybe the conditions under which the death penalty is applied need fine tuning, but I can't support doing away with the death penalty.

I think we should keep the death sentence but it should only be permissibly under very stringent conditions... basically no circumstantial evidence allowed only hard solid evidence.

Bruce

Yes, it's terrible that an innocent man was executed for a crime he didn't commit, but flawed police work shouldn't be justification to take the death penalty off the books.

x2.:thumbsup:

In most cases, the criminals on death row are habitual felons guilty of other crimes. And, in most cases, the deaths these criminals suffer are far more humane than what they inflicted on their victims. Our legal system isn't perfect, but it puts even the poorest of citizens at the advantage of being presumed innocent until proven guilty. Criminals are acquitted every day due to technicalities. When you have someone who goes all the way through the legal process and comes out guilty of a capital offense, it is time to follow through and execute them. The execution of an innocent man is tragic... but allowing thousands of murderers to live out their lives in conditions which are often better than what they had before would be tragedy on a grand scale. The only thing about the death penalty that needs fixing is the speed at which it is administered.

Jeeze If a flawed system and flawed police work are not reasons to re think the death penalty, then what reasons would make the cut?

If that man was innocent then it is a travesty. While I am sitting here playing armchair QB, I think I would rather have my trial at The Pearly Gates moved up than be trapped in a hell on earth prison for the remainder of my natural life. I am not actually about to face death though.

It seems true that DNA is now exhonorating some people in prison of the crimes they were charged with. Moving forward we should be able to be more certain of guilt. The power still lies with the opinion of 12 people though. Just because some of these people being exhonorated weren't guilty of a particular crime I do not believe they are all innocent people. When the police are having a hard time finding somebody to pin with a crime, how often do they drag the head of the PTA in? How about a hard working family man with no criminal record or link to the victim? Just like your mama told you, if you lie down with dogs.....

IMO, one of the biggest problems with the death penalty today is not the penalty itself, but the absolute refusal of most in the criminal justice system to be willing to reexamine cases where legitimate new evidence might lead to another conclusion. They have to be dragged kicking and screaming even when new DNA evidence is presented where the material has always been there but the technology did not exist when the case was tried. The almost pathological desire to protect the "integrity of the criminal justice system" over finding out what actually happened has become more of a CYA exercise for the government IMO. The King cannot be shown to have made a mistake, ya know. I know that believing that the legal system is about finding the "truth" as opposed to dispute resolution or in the case of criminal law about "protecting the King's peace" is delusional, but this is one area of the law where exceptions should be made because the outcome is pretty freakin' final.:o

IMO, one of the biggest problems with the death penalty today is not the penalty itself, but the absolute refusal of most in the criminal justice system to be willing to reexamine cases where legitimate new evidence might lead to another conclusion. They have to be dragged kicking and screaming even when new DNA evidence is presented where the material has always been there but the technology did not exist when the case was tried. The almost pathological desire to protect the "integrity of the criminal justice system" over finding out what actually happened has become more of a CYA exercise for the government IMO. The King cannot be shown to have made a mistake, ya know. I know that believing that the legal system is about finding the "truth" as opposed to dispute resolution or in the case of criminal law about "protecting the King's peace" is delusional, but this is one area of the law where exceptions should be made because the outcome is pretty freakin' final.:o

This is right on!!!!

x2.:thumbsup:
The only thing about the death penalty that needs fixing is the speed at which it is administered.

For crimes so hieanous you can't even fit them in your head.

Like Ron White said put in an express lane. :thumbsup:

Just like your mama told you, if you lie down with dogs.....

Another of my favorites is " where there is smoke there is usually fire "

Death penalty is too easy......

If convicted for a capital offense such as murder- you should go to the gulag and suffer until you die ....

I, like many, have changed my viewpoint on the death penalty over the last decade. I agree that having innocent people die isn't acceptable. Trials can be flawed on many levels that can cause a wrongful conviction. Prosecutors can be eager to get a conviction. Eye witnesses can be very unreliable, inaccurate. Evidence collection can be sloppy. Police work is not always top notch (not trying to offend the LEO's here). Like CJD says, juries can be interesting and flawed by their own personal experiences.

I believe a person should die for certain crimes THEY commit. If we could raise the bar from "beyond a reasonable doubt" to beyond any doubt for the death penalty I would be all for it again.

Texas 'executed an innocent man', report claims


Did everyone miss "report claims". ;?

My opinion, it takes waaaaaaaay too long.

It's been a few years now but I saw a video from a court decision/verdict in one of the Arab countries (exact one isn't relevant).

A man was convicted of killing an adult brother/sister. Judge sentenced him to death. Everyone from the courtroom walked out the back door into an open "field". They handed the woman's husband (who is now a widower) a rifle and he took aim......BANG, sentence carried out, dropped him right on the spot.
Now I don't know if he was truely guilty and that was not the point of the video, but the court was convinced.

Seems to me if you want to plead a case against the death penalty, this one isn't it.

One of DeLuna's lawyers, Hector De Peña, believes that DeLuna and Carlos Hernandez robbed the convenience store together, but "DeLuna was in front of the counter with Hernandez when Hernandez leapt over the counter and stabbed Lopez."[4] Another of DeLuna's lawyers, James Lawrence, said "If you tell me they killed the wrong guy, I don't know", and that "it still bothers me to this day" that DeLuna refused to identify Hernandez from photos.[5] De Peña suggests that DeLuna was afraid to identify Hernandez: "He didn't want to risk possibly getting hurt in the county jail or even killed on the street."[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_DeLuna

Guilty by participation and association , 12 people said he did it.


Casablanca...." Round up the usual suspects."