Dockside Chat - Possible new gas stove question, for you kitchen appliance experts out there . . .

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thundra
03-27-2012, 10:18 AM
. . . I was at my sister in laws and they had a Bosch gas range. I noticed that the fire/flames that came out of the "holes" was powerful, maybe twice as much fire came out compared to my cheap-o GE gas cooktop.

Please tell me, what is it that allows more flame to come out?, is it the stove itself or the pressure from the line coming from the street?

Is it like water where depending on where one lives, the water pressure is strong or weak?, or, is it the amount of money I need to spend on a better gas range that dictates how powerful a fire I can get under my pots and pans?


Kamper
03-27-2012, 10:40 AM
My understanding is the regulator at the house inlet reduces the pressure to something like 2-2.5 psi over ambient. There may be another regulator or valve in the stove itself or at the stove's hookup.

If yours flares for a second at startup then one of your valves may be partially closed.

That's all I think I know about that.

thundra
03-27-2012, 10:50 AM
Yeah, it is not so much a problem with our current stove, it works fine. It is when I went to visit my sister in law and noticed that their Bosch stove had flame coming out that was probably double what my low-budget GE stove puts out.

I wonder if it is that a low-budget stove will put out a reduced flame and that a more expensive stove will put out a bigger flame?


MAXIMUM B
03-27-2012, 11:09 AM
Yeah, it is not so much a problem with our current stove, it works fine. It is when I went to visit my sister in law and noticed that their Bosch stove had flame coming out that was probably double what my low-budget GE stove puts out.

I wonder if it is that a low-budget stove will put out a reduced flame and that a more expensive stove will put out a bigger flame?

You are correct. Had a Sears and bought a Kitchen Aide and there was a big differance in out put. I would venture a guess that all gas appliances have some sort of regulator.

davedowneast
03-27-2012, 11:16 AM
It's the burner orifice that regulates the amount of gas that comes out of each "hole". The stove has a set size orifice for each burner. The total of the orifices equals the BTU output of the burner. My gas stove (previous house) had one burner rated for (18,000)? , then a couple of (12,000)? and the burner for simmer was 6 or 8,000 BTU's.

When you get a stove, it may be set up for NG. To change it to LP, you change the little orifices and a spring in the regulator (the pressure). If the wrong gas is use without everything changed, it will light but it might be a bit MUCH. :grin:

The more expensive stoves have at least one water pot burner (lots of BTU's) to heat up a large pot of water.

thundra
03-27-2012, 11:24 AM
We definitely don't have a problem with output at all. All 4 of the burners on our low-budget GE stove work the same and have been since 2003. I'm sure that because the stove is "cheaper" that all the parts/holes/pipes are smaller, it all makes sense now.

I just wondered why the Bosch stove put out way more flame. It is the parts in the stove that make it more powerful, not that the gas line to the house is bigger or anything like that.

davedowneast
03-27-2012, 11:25 AM
I just looked up the Sears Elite that is similar to the dual fuel (electric convection oven) I had. Here are the burner specs for that stove:

Three Power burners: 17,200, 14,200, & 12,000 BTU; One 9,500 BTU, One 5,000 BTU simmer burner.

Here are the burner specs for a $700 stove: One 12,000 BTU Power burner; two 9,500 BTU all-purpose burners; one 5,000 BTU simmer burner

jking
03-27-2012, 11:29 AM
More flame = more available heat to cook with. I picked up one with a 20k BTU center burner so I could boil water fast, use a big pan to cook with, do a stir fry etc... It was way better than the average 12k burners on low end cook tops. If you were a bit enterprising, you could drill out the holes on your existing unit.

thundra
03-27-2012, 11:31 AM
More flame = more available heat to cook with. I picked up one with a 20k BTU center burner so I could boil water fast, use a big pan to cook with, do a stir fry etc... It was way better than the average 12k burners on low end cook tops. If you were a bit enterprising, you could drill out the holes on your existing unit.

The "holes" are like mako shark toothed slots in aluminum or ceramic.

I wonder if it would make a difference.

I would like more heat but would spend the $7-800 if it ever came down to it.

ericinmich
03-27-2012, 11:35 AM
Different stoves, different burner sizes. Don't forget that more BTUs require more airflow from the stove vent. We've got a big ass stove (I don't know how to work it) and it required a very high flow range hood. It has 3 speeds and the highest sounds like an air boat.

DoubleO7
03-27-2012, 12:41 PM
My understanding is the regulator at the house inlet reduces the pressure to something like 2-2.5 psi over ambient. There may be another regulator or valve in the stove itself or at the stove's hookup.

If yours flares for a second at startup then one of your valves may be partially closed.

That's all I think I know about that.

Household gas pressure is typically regulated to 1/4 psi or less and measured in inches water column.
1/4 psi would be 6.92 w.c.

thundra
03-27-2012, 01:09 PM
Household gas pressure is typically regulated to 1/4 psi or less and measured in inches water column.
1/4 psi would be 6.92 w.c.

So to say that it is the stove that controls how big the flame/fire gets and NOT the gas pressure as all homes incoming gas is regulated at 1/3 psi or less, would be accurate?

jking
03-27-2012, 02:32 PM
So to say that it is the stove that controls how big the flame/fire gets and NOT the gas pressure as all homes incoming gas is regulated at 1/3 psi or less, would be accurate?


Of course.

davedowneast
03-27-2012, 03:06 PM
I may have missed it, are we talking about LP or NG? There's a big difference between the two if you're talking about pressure. You shouldn't mess with the pressure or orifice size.

LP (liquefied petroleum) is delivered as a liquid and stored as a liquid under high pressure. It vaporizes in the tank, pressure is dropped via a regulator on the tank and/or house. It is then used at approx 14"WC by appliances. Nat Gas is delivered as a low pressure gas, a regulator at your house or appliance then drops pressure to approx 3.5"WC and is used by appliances at that pressure. Because of the pressure difference LP burner orifices are much smaller. Almost any burner can be changed from one to the other by a qualified tech. One other property of LP is that LP vapor is heaver than air and can accumulate in low areas if it leaks. Hope this helps

Eyeball
03-27-2012, 05:04 PM
More flame = more available heat to cook with. I picked up one with a 20k BTU center burner so I could boil water fast, use a big pan to cook with, do a stir fry etc...



More flame = more available heat to cook with = more heat in the kitchen. That's why commercial kitchens use induction heating elements. The heat goes into the pan only.

3500 watts = 31,000 BTU burner ... and no heat in the kitchen, except what radiates from the pan.

http://www.cooktek.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/prod_img_lg/Heritage_Single_Counter_Top_Cooktop.jpg

Note: don't wear your tin foil hat if cooking with induction units. :grin:

davedowneast
03-27-2012, 08:15 PM
I'd love to be able to afford a 36" induction cooktop and the required new pots and pans when I remodel. I'm sure there's a down side, but it's a very cool way to boil water (about the extent of my cooking abilities). :thumbsup:

ladyjane
03-28-2012, 04:00 AM
I'd love to be able to afford a 36" induction cooktop and the required new pots and pans when I remodel. I'm sure there's a down side, but it's a very cool way to boil water (about the extent of my cooking abilities). :thumbsup:What are the new pans and how mush do they cost?

bellsisland
03-28-2012, 05:17 AM
I have a bosch and it is great to cook with

davedowneast
03-28-2012, 05:18 AM
What are the new pans and how mush do they cost?

I could Google to make sure, but I believe you can't use certain types. If I remember correctly, you have to use some type of stainless. I'm sure there's others on here that know a lot more about pots and pans than I do.

If you're a cook with an extensive collection of the wrong type, it would be expensive to make the change. Most of my "high-end" stuff came from places like WalMart, so the cookware hasn't been a concern to me. ;)

thundra
03-28-2012, 07:11 AM
I was talking Natural Gas.

You guys are always great. Thanks for the info/help.

Eyeball
03-28-2012, 11:10 AM
I could Google to make sure, but I believe you can't use certain types.

Induction works by switching the electromagnetic field from + to - and back a gazillion times a second. That spins the molecules (or was it atoms?) in steel (iron), causing friction that results in the heat you cook with. So aluminum will not work for induction cooking. You are safe to wear your aluminum foil hat in the kitchen. :thumbsup: But the tin foil hat (with steel in it) could be a bitch. :grin:

Modern pots/pans are made with stainless steel containing more iron so they work on an induction cooker. Also, aluminum pans are now made with stainless steel on the outside so they work on induction cookers, too.

Not all stainless steel works on an induction cooker. High-end pans use one type of stainless on the inside that is not effected by induction, aluminum in the middle, and induction sensitive stainless steel on the outside -- three different metals.

DoubleO7
03-28-2012, 11:29 AM
I may have missed it, are we talking about LP or NG? There's a big difference between the two if you're talking about pressure. You shouldn't mess with the pressure or orifice size.

LP (liquefied petroleum) is delivered as a liquid and stored as a liquid under high pressure. It vaporizes in the tank, pressure is dropped via a regulator on the tank and/or house. It is then used at approx 14"WC by appliances. Nat Gas is delivered as a low pressure gas, a regulator at your house or appliance then drops pressure to approx 3.5"WC and is used by appliances at that pressure. Because of the pressure difference LP burner orifices are much smaller. Almost any burner can be changed from one to the other by a qualified tech. One other property of LP is that LP vapor is heaver than air and can accumulate in low areas if it leaks. Hope this helps

However..........they do not generally change the burners in order to change the orifice(s).
Typically there is one small orifice on the inlet to each burner, it is that orie per burner orifice that gets changed.
Some older stoves have a gas regulator on the stove itself, upstream of all burners.
On those, It is that single one orifice inside that regulator that gets changed, along with the regulator's diaphram spring sometimes.

woftam1024
03-28-2012, 05:17 PM
All gas ranges have pressure regulators.2.5-4 inches of water column for NG 10-12 for LP. BTUs are controlled by orfice, airflow and bypass jets on valve body.

Higher end ranges will have higher output burners as well as lower simmer settings.

Induction cooktops need ferric pots and pans. If a magnet won't stick to it, it won't work.

jobowker
03-28-2012, 05:33 PM
What are the new pans and how mush do they cost?

If it's induction, you cannot use non magnetic (aluminum) pans.

thundra
03-29-2012, 09:18 AM
Very interesting and informative fella's. I'd rather read what you all have to say than dare start with asking a salesman.

Thanks!

Eyeball
03-29-2012, 09:31 AM
Higher end ranges will have higher output burners as well as lower simmer settings.



While shopping for a gas water heater I discovered bigger burners not only burn hotter, they also need a bigger gas line coming in to feed them. I suspect it may be similar with high-end ranges -- not that any single burner is hot enough to require a larger gas line, but if all of the burners are on at the same time ...



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