The Boating Forum - Starving for fuel at high rpm's, primer ball collapse

THE HULL TRUTH is the world's largest FREE network for the discussion of Boating & Fishing. Whether you're researching a new boat, or are a seasoned Captain, you'll find The Hull Truth Boating & Fishing Message Forum contains a wealth of information from Boaters and Sportfishermen around the world.




JimmyG31b
10-31-2010, 06:34 PM
I launched my summer project yesterday its a 22' inboard marada deck boat i converted into a duck hunting boat. I removed the inboard and purchased a rebuilt 2005 150hp Johnson Ocean pro, all fuel lines,fuel fill and vent hoses are new, primer ball and Racor filter are also new, all fittings and hoses are 3/8 ID. I pumped out all the old fuel from the 45 gallon plastic tank and filled it with new gas. She runs great at high rpm's for a short time (see video clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxR50gceh48 ) then you have to pump the primer ball to keep it going and then the ball sucks down flat! I bypassed the Racor = no change i checked the fuel vent hose and there was gas in a low spot so i rerouted the vent line so there are no low spots to trap fuel = no change, im baffled any ideas???


oneill469
10-31-2010, 06:40 PM
Your pickup is probably fouled inside the tank.

Lyle29464
10-31-2010, 06:48 PM
The inboard tank has a anti-siphon valve where your gas line hooks on. Take it off and clean it out.


EODContender
10-31-2010, 06:49 PM
The only thing I can think if is a kink or a clog before the racor. I would try diconnecting the fuel line before the racor and using some pressureized air to back blow the fuel line and see if it clears anything out. Take the fuel cap off first.

Beefer
10-31-2010, 08:07 PM
1) Can you blow through your vent tube? If not, it's clogged.

2) If your pick up tube has a screen, it's fouled or getting clogged by something in the tank.

3) Anti-siphon valve is clogged. Replace or remove it.

4) You've got crap in your tank.

#'s 1 & 3 are cheap and easy fixes. (Unless you're vent tube id buried in flotation foam)

#'s 2 & 4 will require either simply cleaning the pick up screen, or draining and cleaning the tank.

I've got crap in my tank, and getting the tank cleaned in the morning. Fun....

ReelWork
10-31-2010, 08:42 PM
Checked out your video... Cool boat!

JimmyG31b
10-31-2010, 08:43 PM
1) Can you blow through your vent tube? If not, it's clogged.

2) If your pick up tube has a screen, it's fouled or getting clogged by something in the tank.

3) Anti-siphon valve is clogged. Replace or remove it.

4) You've got crap in your tank.

#'s 1 & 3 are cheap and easy fixes. (Unless you're vent tube id buried in flotation foam)

#'s 2 & 4 will require either simply cleaning the pick up screen, or draining and cleaning the tank.

I've got crap in my tank, and getting the tank cleaned in the morning. Fun....

I dont think there is crap in the tank, i checked the old stuff when in pumped it out also wouldn't i see stuff in the clear racor bowl......thanks i check out all

testerman28
11-01-2010, 05:10 AM
could be salt water build up on the vent screen..

scullym
11-01-2010, 05:35 AM
had a similar problem and it turned out to be a broken spring in the anti-siphon valve and that $25 part ruined a boating vacation. and, your wise to not exclude checking the fuel system from vent-fill to filter for chinks, hose trimmings or restrictions. i still had my shop run simple vacuum check to see if it was within specs.

JimmyG31b
11-01-2010, 04:31 PM
Well just got out of the boat pulled the new vent hose off and blew it out anyway, it was clear. I then pulled off the barb at the tank, no anti siphon valve (clear 3/8 barb). i then had to cut a hole in the deck to remove the pick up tube and it was very clean and clear...now im officially stumped!

lostsinker
11-01-2010, 04:42 PM
I have to take your word for it but there is almost always an anti-siphon valve. It often looks just like a plain angle fitting so chech that you can pass a piece of wire through it.
That said, run the boat with the fill cap off and see if the problem happens. If it doesn't, you have a venting issue.
If it does, you could still have a blocked pickup. Only buy using a portable fule tank will you be able to isolate the blockage.
Mkae sure your filter is piped in the correct direction.

techdave
11-01-2010, 04:53 PM
not to doubt your capability, pick-up tube clear? is it per chance aluminum solid pipe or plastic somewhat flexible? if its aluminum all the way, do not be fooled ,as there is a cone mesh filter all the way up inside ( 90%), so you have to unscrew it at the knuckle. if you find this screen or any screen,REMOVE it completely! most screens i have seen does not meet the MIN. requirements by OMC in their SERVICE manual.By the way , the fuel tube is not something you want to service out in the high seas, so a good spin-on is easier to service and will trap most debris before reaching the motor. Does this help you any? hope so.;cool;

JimmyG31b
11-01-2010, 05:41 PM
I have to take your word for it but there is almost always an anti-siphon valve. It often looks just like a plain angle fitting so chech that you can pass a piece of wire through it.
That said, run the boat with the fill cap off and see if the problem happens. If it doesn't, you have a venting issue.
If it does, you could still have a blocked pickup. Only buy using a portable fule tank will you be able to isolate the blockage.
Mkae sure your filter is piped in the correct direction.

Some one had that barb off before because there was ATV silicone on it (non- OEM) I removed the barb, the elbow and the pick up tube in 3 separate pieces and can see thru them all 3/8 diameter all the way! i might have to get a portable tank and try it, thank you

JimmyG31b
11-01-2010, 05:48 PM
not to doubt your capability, pick-up tube clear? is it per chance aluminum solid pipe or plastic somewhat flexible? if its aluminum all the way, do not be fooled ,as there is a cone mesh filter all the way up inside ( 90%), so you have to unscrew it at the knuckle. if you find this screen or any screen,REMOVE it completely! most screens i have seen does not meet the MIN. requirements by OMC in their SERVICE manual.By the way , the fuel tube is not something you want to service out in the high seas, so a good spin-on is easier to service and will trap most debris before reaching the motor. Does this help you any? hope so.;cool;

Dave,I removed the barb, the elbow and the PLASTIC pick up tube in 3 separate pieces and can see thru them 3/8 diameter all the way. Now it does have a screen on the end (about 1"long) i checked it,it was clean. I also blew it out, do you think that would be a restriction? I have a in line Racor (10 micron) is that ok? I by-passed during the test ride think it was the problem and it didnt make a difference

Mr. Demeanor
11-01-2010, 06:44 PM
Inside of the fuel line is collapsing.
If its grey fuel line, its almost certain. If its black fue line, its likely.

lostsinker
11-02-2010, 06:18 AM
Inside of the fuel line is collapsing.
If its grey fuel line, its almost certain. If its black fue line, its likely.

I thought of that but he said he replaced all fuel lines with new . I assume he used A1 marine variety.

JimmyG31b
11-02-2010, 06:44 AM
I thought of that but he said he replaced all fuel lines with new . I assume he used A1 marine variety.
A1??? maybe thats the problem, I used my automotive vendor for 3/8 fuel line

Mr. Demeanor
11-02-2010, 07:17 AM
Just so long as it was enthanol rated and not the grey stuff.
If you primer ball is collapsing, you DO have a restriction between the ball and tank and that could include the ball itself.

You didnt by chance put the ball in backwards when you replaced the lines????

Beefer
11-02-2010, 07:28 AM
Dave,I removed the barb, the elbow and the PLASTIC pick up tube in 3 separate pieces and can see thru them 3/8 diameter all the way. Now it does have a screen on the end (about 1"long) i checked it,it was clean. I also blew it out, do you think that would be a restriction? I have a in line Racor (10 micron) is that ok? I by-passed during the test ride think it was the problem and it didnt make a difference

Remove that screen, that's first and foremost.

Is your Racor getting little tiny orange-brown sand-like particles in it? If so, your tank probably has a ton of them (the little particles) which is (I believe) the shellac-like coating on the inside of your tank breaking down.

You probably have more filters than just the Racor. How old are they? Have you checked all the filters?

I had a very similar problem, no primer ball, though, but a vacuum was developing in my Fuel/water separator. I had the fuel tank cleaned (thanks Absolute), and there was quite a bit of little sand-like/coffee grinds in the tank clogging my Racor. I would have to release the vacuum to be able to run again. Tooks 3.5 months to figure this out. :mad:

bluewaterseeker
11-02-2010, 07:32 AM
A portable tank will help isolate the problem..........

JimmyG31b
11-02-2010, 06:47 PM
Remove that screen, that's first and foremost.

Is your Racor getting little tiny orange-brown sand-like particles in it? If so, your tank probably has a ton of them (the little particles) which is (I believe) the shellac-like coating on the inside of your tank breaking down.

You probably have more filters than just the Racor. How old are they? Have you checked all the filters?

I had a very similar problem, no primer ball, though, but a vacuum was developing in my Fuel/water separator. I had the fuel tank cleaned (thanks Absolute), and there was quite a bit of little sand-like/coffee grinds in the tank clogging my Racor. I would have to release the vacuum to be able to run again. Tooks 3.5 months to figure this out. :mad:

everything is new, first time used except for the tank, its plastic and was pumped out dry and filled with new gas. I only have one filter the new Racor I installed last week and i checked it and its clear. I think i'll try replacing the fuel line with a heavy duty ethanol safe fuel line and a OEM primer ball and take the screen out of the pick up tube and give her another try...thanks eveyone

Mr. Demeanor
11-02-2010, 07:34 PM
Let us know what you find either way.

testerman28
11-03-2010, 03:06 PM
it will be easy to replace your fuel line if it has collapsed inside itself..

my neighbors fuel line looked like blocked arteries..

corn is better used as whiskey... T.T.

Beefer
11-03-2010, 05:37 PM
I was originally thinking the boat was a 2005, but now I see it's just the engine. What year is the boat? I know that some of the older non-aluminum fuel cells had problems when ethanol was introduced. The tank would literally melt away, and there would be globs of the melted tank getting pulled into the system. What is the condition of your tank? If you don't know, I'd try to pull it if possible, and see the condition of it. Basically, it sounds like everything in the fuel delivery system has been replaced, except for the tank. So, either the tank is the problem, or something in the tank is the problem.

JimmyG31b
12-24-2010, 12:25 PM
1 month later, and still starving for fuel! I'm at my wits end i replaced everything twice! Last resort I purchased a 5 gallon plastic fuel tank an im going to try that. The boat runs great as long as i keep pumping the ball, could it be a fuel pump issue?

DoubleO7
12-24-2010, 12:46 PM
If the ball is being sucked flat, there is only one thing doing that.......................the fuel pump.

DoubleO7
12-24-2010, 12:53 PM
1 month later, and still starving for fuel! I'm at my wits end i replaced everything twice! Last resort I purchased a 5 gallon plastic fuel tank an im going to try that. The boat runs great as long as i keep pumping the ball, could it be a fuel pump issue?

From the 5 gal can or the boat tank?

Primer bulb arrow is pointed towards engine.

All of the hose thru out the run has no bends that are starting to collapse the hose.

Pulled hose at tank outlet and at engine and blew air thru freely?

take one
12-24-2010, 03:34 PM
make sure the tank vent screen on the hullside is clear. my old merc did the same thing. and it was the fuel tank vent screen.

kerno
12-24-2010, 03:42 PM
It could also be a piece of crud in the tank that is being attracted to the pickup by suction. Can you leave the pickup loose and lift it out when the ball goes flat?

billinstuart
12-24-2010, 04:21 PM
If you open the gas cap when the ball is sucked flat, and the problem goes away, it's a restricted vent. worth a try.............?

Bob's Garage
12-24-2010, 04:48 PM
After reading and reading all the posts and the original post I have come to the conclusion that the problem is a venting problem caused by too small of vent lines and vent fittings. You replaced all lines and fittings with new 3/8" hoses. You need to replace the vent line with a 5/8" line and fittings. Your engine is pulling the fuel out faster than the current vent line can replace the air and once the available air is used up it starves out.

Okay, the next and most important comment is; YOU SHOULD NOT BE USING AUTOMOTIVE HOSE FOR YOUR BOAT. YOU SHOULD BE USING USCG APPROVED A-1 FUEL HOSES. You should also double clamp the fittings.

Hope the 1st part helps, please take the advise in the 2nd part.

Graceman
12-24-2010, 07:22 PM
I second the above post. You must have a venting issue. Going with new and bigger Coast Gaurd Approved hose is what I would do. If you ever have an issue and make an insurance claim with the automotive fuel hose your insurance company will send an adjuster to inspect your vessel. If they find non marine grade fittings ie; No Anti-siphon fitting and non approved fuel hose your claim could be denied!

Lemke
12-24-2010, 09:11 PM
Is your primer ball oriented up and down? And not sideways?

JimmyG31b
12-24-2010, 09:36 PM
After reading and reading all the posts and the original post I have come to the conclusion that the problem is a venting problem caused by too small of vent lines and vent fittings. You replaced all lines and fittings with new 3/8" hoses. You need to replace the vent line with a 5/8" line and fittings. Your engine is pulling the fuel out faster than the current vent line can replace the air and once the available air is used up it starves out.

Okay, the next and most important comment is; YOU SHOULD NOT BE USING AUTOMOTIVE HOSE FOR YOUR BOAT. YOU SHOULD BE USING USCG APPROVED A-1 FUEL HOSES. You should also double clamp the fittings.

Hope the 1st part helps, please take the advise in the 2nd part.

1) the vent & vent hose are NEW and 5/8 , i blew it out with compressed air just to make sure, I also ran with the fuel fill cap off for extra venting.

2) I pulled out the pick up tube removed the screen and checked for a anti siphon valve (already removed) the built in tank (plastic) was pumped out completely and filled with fresh gas

3)i removed my (marine grade A1) fuel hose and primer ball off my 23 Mako with a 250 hp e-tech and tried that, it's a simple 6' connection with no kinks, I have a inline racor that i by passed thinking that there was a restriction there.

The only thing i noticed is the ball i have now has a little larger 3/8 inlet and outlet (arrow is in the correct direction) and now it does not completely flatten all the way but to get over 4000 rpm i have to manually pump the ball with my hand, without manually pumping the ball it will just maintain 3000 rpm at plane any more throttle she'll spit and sputter and fall on her face! I am going to try a new 5 gallon plastic tank with its own line and isolate the problem. I own an autobody shop for over 25 years and im also a mechanic (not marine) and i'm truly stumped!!!

bayrunner16
12-24-2010, 11:01 PM
My Dad and I had the same kind of problem on a 99 200 optimax that we just fought with and fought with. It turned out to be a tiny airhole in the fuel line inside the motor. I don't know your motor but the optimax has a hard circular black piece of plastic(tube) that comes off the motor in the front of it. The fuel lines , steering cable, battery cables all go through this plastic tube into the inside of the motor. All of that shit in there rubbed through a spot on the line that comes from inside the motor. When we would try and open her up she would suck air and collapse the bulb. If we would pump the bulb you wouldn't know anything was wrong. It never did it unless you were really on the throttle.

Bob's Garage
12-25-2010, 01:49 AM
1) the vent & vent hose are NEW and 5/8 , i blew it out with compressed air just to make sure, I also ran with the fuel fill cap off for extra venting.

2) I pulled out the pick up tube removed the screen and checked for a anti siphon valve (already removed) the built in tank (plastic) was pumped out completely and filled with fresh gas

3)i removed my (marine grade A1) fuel hose and primer ball off my 23 Mako with a 250 hp e-tech and tried that, it's a simple 6' connection with no kinks, I have a inline racor that i by passed thinking that there was a restriction there.

The only thing i noticed is the ball i have now has a little larger 3/8 inlet and outlet (arrow is in the correct direction) and now it does not completely flatten all the way but to get over 4000 rpm i have to manually pump the ball with my hand, without manually pumping the ball it will just maintain 3000 rpm at plane any more throttle she'll spit and sputter and fall on her face! I am going to try a new 5 gallon plastic tank with its own line and isolate the problem. I own an autobody shop for over 25 years and im also a mechanic (not marine) and i'm truly stumped!!!

Sorry to seem critical, but on the one hand you are indicating that you installed 3/8" hoses and fittings, then you are indicating that you installed the pump/fuel line from your 250 hp e-tech and it had "larger fittings." There is a "disconnect" here somehow as I am sure the E-tech required a 5/8" ID hose and fittings to operate w/o problems.

Yet it appears to have changed the dynamics of the problem, but did not cure it. This still sounds like you have 3/8" ID hose and fittings in your system. Perhaps you need to replace the fittings and hoses with 5/8" fuel hoses (not just the hoses as the small fittings would still cause a restriction).

I understand that you are a person with advanced mechanical ability, certainly with more experience that I. But common sense, and relying on your posted description of symptoms and corrective action taken, in order for the "bulb" to be flattened, the problem must be between it and the outside vent. And since you now say that removing the fill cap does not correct the problem, the problem must be in the fuel delivery system.

Therefore, if the tank is clean, the hoses and fittings are new and clear, with absolutely no obstructions, then the fuel line must be the wrong size. (I hate making "absolute" and "must be" type statements, but in this case I honestly see no alternative.)

Bob's Garage
12-25-2010, 02:23 AM
You know, it just dawned on me that you might be thinking 5/16" when you are reading 5/8", which could explain the confusion of the "The only thing i noticed is the ball i have now has a little larger 3/8 inlet and outlet" remark.

The 5/8" hose is almost double the ID of the 3/8" and is double the 5/16", and is the largest vent and fuel line I have seen for outboards. Although there are probably larger available.

Just a thought.

C Skip R
12-25-2010, 05:49 AM
Your pickup is probably fouled inside the tank.

I agree usually when the engine starves for fuel at high rpm it related to the pickup tube sucking up crap at bottom of tank. Hook up a clean 6 gallon tank and see how it does with that.

BigosS
12-25-2010, 05:53 AM
An Etec requires 5/8 fuel hose? I can run 35 gph to my 454's with 3/8 line.

First try the separate tank. Then I would try another new fuel bulb. If that doesn't work I would next install a temporary section of clear fuel line between the bulb and engine and look for bubbles indicating an air leak. Next disconnect the vent line right at the fuel tank, figure out a safe way to run like this (low level of fuel in the tank and maybe a piece of screen over the vent outlet). Poke a wire through the tank vent outlet into the tank and make sure there is nothing there. Take all the tank draw tube, shutoff valve and whatever fittings are there all apart into separate pieces, inspect each, reassemble. I like Permatex non-hardening gasket sealer on those fittings. Lastly, do an end-to-end pressure and vacuum test of the fuel line from tank outlet to engine inlet.

BigosS
12-25-2010, 05:56 AM
One more thought. Measure the length of the tank draw tube and make sure it isn't bottoming out in the tank. You should have some clearance between the tube inlet and tank. How much clearance is debatable. I wouldn't want any less than 1".

JimmyG31b
12-25-2010, 06:49 AM
You know, it just dawned on me that you might be thinking 5/16" when you are reading 5/8", which could explain the confusion of the "The only thing i noticed is the ball i have now has a little larger 3/8 inlet and outlet" remark.

The 5/8" hose is almost double the ID of the 3/8" and is double the 5/16", and is the largest vent and fuel line I have seen for outboards. Although there are probably larger available.

Just a thought.

Merry Christmas everyone and thanks for the help, Bob so we are straight im using 5/8 (id) vent line and 3/8 (id) fuel line i think the small difference in primer balls i had was because they were different manufactures and they were both 3/8 unless the first one was packaged wrong and it was 5/16. thats why i took off the hose & ball off my great running E-Tech to see if it made a difference, if it could keep the fuel going to the 250 hp there should be enough for a 150hp. The only fuel line i did not change is the short (aprox 1') line that is hooked to the motor and comes out the side of the cover with a 3/8 barb on it.

Bob's Garage
12-25-2010, 07:06 AM
An Etec requires 5/8 fuel hose? I can run 35 gph to my 454's with 3/8 line..

My comment on the 5/8" line for the E-tech is based on the fact that my twin Suzuki 140's use 5/8" ID line.

I like the idea of the over long dip tube, it could conceivably pull so much fuel from the tank that it would starve the engine but would it form a vacuum? (I guess it could as long as the demand was high and the supply was low. So if the tube was just barely off the bottom, a pocket could form at the tip where all the fuel was sucked out and could not be replaced quickly enough, this might simulate a vacuum. I like it, it's just si-fi enough to be possible.)

Also a hole in the line anywhere doesn't seem like it would form and hold a vacuum.

Bob's Garage
12-25-2010, 07:07 AM
Please find the answer and post it so as to put us out of our misery!!

bayrunner16
12-25-2010, 07:44 AM
Merry Christmas everyone and thanks for the help, Bob so we are straight im using 5/8 (id) vent line and 3/8 (id) fuel line i think the small difference in primer balls i had was because they were different manufactures and they were both 3/8 unless the first one was packaged wrong and it was 5/16. thats why i took off the hose & ball off my great running E-Tech to see if it made a difference, if it could keep the fuel going to the 250 hp there should be enough for a 150hp. The only fuel line i did not change is the short (aprox 1') line that is hooked to the motor and comes out the side of the cover with a 3/8 barb on it.


In my post on page 2 I tried to explain the fuel line you are talking about here. The one from under the motor. If you changed the rest you might try that one also because we did all the same stuff as you and that was the line that was sucking air. In the tube on the motor it was rubbing on another hose or maybe a misplaced zip tie. chris
oh and it never smelled of gas or leaked that we ever noticed either.

alnuts
12-25-2010, 10:08 AM
Man the only thing to fix it is to sell the boat. Why dose stuff like that only happen to people like me and you? Ok the bulb sucking closed some type of restriction. I dident read that you tryed a remote gas can? What about trying a diferent prim bulb? I want to know what it was when you find the problem.::banghead:

Beefer
12-25-2010, 11:09 AM
JimmyG, you said you removed the screen on the pickup tube. Was that at the bottom of the tube? There may be another one inside the tube. That's what my problem was, there was a second screen inside the tube at the top of the tube. I opened up the pickup tube, and there it was, completely clogged with crap. This may not help, but it may.

Since the bulb is collapsing, there is a vacuum being created somewhere between the tank and the inlet side of the fuel pump (this we all are aware of). If none of the other suggestions are working, check each connection for teflon tape or something else at each fitting. If you have a fuel water separator, take it off and inspect the inlets for obstructions.

You will eventually figure it out, and you'll be surprise how simple/stupid the problem was. Bright side is, you still have a few months to figure it out before boating season starts again!

JimmyG31b
12-25-2010, 01:32 PM
JimmyG, you said you removed the screen on the pickup tube. Was that at the bottom of the tube? There may be another one inside the tube. That's what my problem was, there was a second screen inside the tube at the top of the tube. I opened up the pickup tube, and there it was, completely clogged with crap. This may not help, but it may.

Since the bulb is collapsing, there is a vacuum being created somewhere between the tank and the inlet side of the fuel pump (this we all are aware of). If none of the other suggestions are working, check each connection for teflon tape or something else at each fitting. If you have a fuel water separator, take it off and inspect the inlets for obstructions.

You will eventually figure it out, and you'll be surprise how simple/stupid the problem was. Bright side is, you still have a few months to figure it out before boating season starts again!

unfortunately boating season just started for me (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKM3oytz5ns) i'll get it sooner or later thankfully i can still use it

GulfC
12-25-2010, 01:45 PM
Remove the engine side fuel line of the prime bulb and make sure it pumps fuel from the tank . If it's collapsing, your fuel pump is fine and if the pick up and lines are clear, you've got a fuel tank ventilation problem.

RollinSmoke
12-25-2010, 02:07 PM
From what I have read, there is nothing else i can think of. But on a better note. That is one bad ass duck blind boat.

JimmyG31b
01-02-2011, 10:57 PM
Well still plugging away, thinking it may be a bad fuel pump I contacted the co who sold me the rebuilt 2005 ocean Pro a few months ago and the said they they thought my hunch may be right so they sent me a (used) pump i replaced it and now not only it's still starving for fuel at higher rpm the oil light comes on now....i think i'm going the wrong way! I'll get it sooner or later.

eddie50
01-03-2011, 08:24 AM
pix pix
enquiring minds want to know and see.

proaudioguy
01-03-2011, 11:16 AM
There could be something light enough and large enough to be getting sucked up to the pick up even after you pulled the screens. I wasn't clear if this happened every single time or just randomly.

I had a similar issue but it was random. I finally pulled the screen off the pick up tube and put an old school paper filter before the Racor. You can see all these little chips and flakes of varnish in the filter. The boat hasn't had the issue since I did this and has no trouble staying at WOT anymore. When the bulb would get sucked flat, I would unscrew the water drain on the racor and release the vacuum. Some of the gas would fall back in to the tank and push the flakes off the screen. The boat would then run fine again for a while. It was a long process to figure this out. Everyone told me the vent was plugged, etc. My tank is plastic and had a lot of dried up gas in it. I took it out and cleaned it the best I could but didn't get it all 100% out. I figured after a season of boating with it like this I'd try putting the screen back on and see if it continues to work or not. I carry lots of extra filters.

Necessary Evil
01-03-2011, 12:35 PM
I had an old Whaler with this issue. It would occur more frequently when the water was rough and when I got down to the last quarter of a tank of gas. Just little bits of crud in the tank stopping up the fuel pick up. I cleaned the tank by (Very Carefully) pumping the fuel through a paper filter over and over while moving the pump pick up tube all around the inside of the tank. Collected a good handfull of crud. Problem solved. Just make darn sure the pump is appropriate for pumping gasoline, and keep any idiot smokers way the heck away.

mdwstson
01-05-2011, 11:43 AM
Jimmy...you mentioned that when you removed the pickup from the fuel tank there was 3 pieces? Did you check the tube itself for kinks or splits? (mainly kinks) Plastic fuel tanks are notorious for collapsing enough to put a bind on, or even kink/break plastic pickup tubes. Also, the tube itself should NOT rotate on the elbow that it's attached to. If in doubt about any of these issues, buy a new pickup tube assembly ($10-$15) and measure the depth of your tank (once the old tube is out) and cut the new pickup tube to length, approximately 1" shorter and on an ANGLE. I think you had the answer in your hand the first time you removed this! ;)

I chased my tail with this problem once a loooong time ago, never forgot that lesson. (Just because it looks good doesn't make it so...)

If your primer bulb is going flat and your confident with the hoses, primer bulb, etc... your fuel pump is doing its job, recheck the pickup tube and install a BRASS anti-siphon valve at the pickup elbow. It helps keep your fuel line full so the fuel pump won't have to fight so hard against "gravity".

kitebuz
01-05-2011, 11:55 AM
Are the arrows on your primer bulb pointing in the right direction?

Did you test removing your fuel cap underway to see if it relieves the vacuum?

I'm interested to find out what's happening here. Have you tried a new (different) primer bulb?

proaudioguy
01-05-2011, 12:01 PM
I thought the anti siphon valve was to keep the gas from pouring out of the tank when the engine was lower than the tank. One of the reasons outboards don't need them. If the hose connection broke, the bilge would fill up with fuel. I thought the antisiphon valve was just a spring loaded valve that wouldn't allow fuel to pass from the minimal pressure of gravity (the siphon effect), but would open up when the fuel pump was drawing a vacuum on the line.

Also when replacing the pick up tube be sure the end is weighted enough to hit the bottom. My pickup tube is near the front of the tank, but when we are in the water the rear of the tank is a lot lower. The tube is long enough to reach the bottom of the tank and aft a bit, but with no weight it curls up out of the gas (when the tank is low). The brass fitting with the screen managed to keep it down using gravity. When I took the screen out, I put a brass fitting in it's place to keep the tube down.

One more thing. You said a replacement pick up tube was $10-15. Where would I get one of those? I haven't found anything like whats inside my tank. I'd love to replace it just to be on the safe side. it appears to just be a plastic tube but I fear if I just go to the hardware store, what I get there will dissolve in the tank with time.

HuntersDad
01-05-2011, 12:11 PM
went through the same thing in 2010 with my boat. checked and replaced all fuel lines, bulb (2 times) checked the anti siphon valve, fuel tank, etc. chased the problem around the boat two or three times. finally used the remote tank idea, narrowed the problem to one area, and found ........ never and i repeat never use an off the shelf, wal mart or anytihing other than an OEM bulb. now maybe i had multiple problems that i solved along the way but the OEM bulb was the ticket. good luck!

mdwstson
01-05-2011, 12:23 PM
I thought the anti siphon valve was to keep the gas from pouring out of the tank when the engine was lower than the tank. One of the reasons outboards don't need them. If the hose connection broke, the bilge would fill up with fuel. I thought the antisiphon valve was just a spring loaded valve that wouldn't allow fuel to pass from the minimal pressure of gravity (the siphon effect), but would open up when the fuel pump was drawing a vacuum on the line.

That is true...partially. It is required for inboards & sterndrives (mostly, but I don't want to get into regs here ;) ) It is "recommended" for most outboard applications as well, especially where there is some distance or steep vertical rise in the fuel supply hose. Outboard fuel pumps are not (typically) nearly as good at "sucking" the fuel as an inboard or sterndrive pump is. Having a good quality anti-siphon valve can help reduce headaches with outboards; by helping maintain "prime" in the fuel line, the fuel pump doesn't have to work near as hard, especially at idle or low speeds.
I couldn't tell you how many times people would complain about a "bog" on initial acceleration but after that it would be fine; because outboard pumps are notoriously weak, it couldn't draw enough fuel at IDLE to fill the engines fuel system completely. A missing anti-siphon valve was "usually" the culprit.

The farther away the fuel tank is from the engine, or the steeper the rise in the fuel line (deep hulls, w/long shaft motors), the more "recommended" they become.

mdwstson
01-05-2011, 12:25 PM
One more thing. You said a replacement pick up tube was $10-15. Where would I get one of those? I haven't found anything like whats inside my tank. I'd love to replace it just to be on the safe side. it appears to just be a plastic tube but I fear if I just go to the hardware store, what I get there will dissolve in the tank with time.

West Marine/Boat US, most marine parts stores should have them or be able to order one.

doubleubee
01-05-2011, 01:01 PM
Forgive me if I missed it, but you have been talking about trying a portable tank for some time. Why the delay? To me this is so simple fast and easy. Why not do this first instead of jerking around for months?

wickie
01-05-2011, 06:13 PM
I second Doubleubee,

Get a 2 gallon plastic can, stick your inline right into it and see what happens. If it works, lower the can to the same height as your fuel tank and go from there. If id does not work, your problem is from the bulb onto the engine.

JimmyG31b
01-09-2011, 09:54 AM
Ok totally at a loss, I have done everything! I know i procrastinated when it came to trying a external fuel source because i knew everything was good with the one i had but to satisfy my and others curiosity i went out and purchased a NEW Tempo 5 gallon tank, NEW marine grade hose and a NEW OMC primer bulb....and yes still the same problem!!! I have also been in discussions with the remanufacture of the engine, they sent me a bench tested used fuel pump assembly (not just the pump) he also told me to check jets adjustment he said they should be turned in all the way and backed out 7 turns (some were 6 to 9) So now not only do I still have a fuel problem the oil alarm keeps going off (i had to mix oil in with fuel ). On a side note i think my 15 x 17 SS 3 blade prop is to large for the few second i do reach WOT it's just under 5000 rpm any recommendation on this too? Please view my short video from yesterdays duck hunting trip to see what i'm dealing with, it's hard to manually pump the ball every time you run the boat in sub zero wind chills! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqKkSH7Y3gY

alnuts
01-09-2011, 10:36 AM
Ok totally at a loss, I have done everything! I know i procrastinated when it came to trying a external fuel source because i knew everything was good with the one i had but to satisfy my and others curiosity i went out and purchased a NEW Tempo 5 gallon tank, NEW marine grade hose and a NEW OMC primer bulb....and yes still the same problem!!! I have also been in discussions with the remanufacture of the engine, they sent me a bench tested used fuel pump assembly (not just the pump) he also told me to check jets adjustment he said they should be turned in all the way and backed out 7 turns (some were 6 to 9) So now not only do I still have a fuel problem the oil alarm keeps going off (i had to mix oil in with fuel ). On a side note i think my 15 x 17 SS 3 blade prop is to large for the few second i do reach WOT it's just under 5000 rpm any recommendation on this too? Please view my short video from yesterdays duck hunting trip to see what i'm dealing with, it's hard to manually pump the ball every time you run the boat in sub zero wind chills! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqKkSH7Y3gY

I think you need to sell your boat and get a new hobby:sleeping:

mdwstson
01-09-2011, 10:51 AM
Just curious, have you verified that ALL 6 cylinders are firing when your at speed? By priming the bulb (in case this isn't a fuel issue) you could be forcing more fuel into the cylinders and covering another problem; it may not sound rational, but I've had engines with intermittent spark issues on one or two cyl's that would be carried by the good cyl's if you "overfueled" them...may want to verify this if everything on the fuel system keeps checking out.

That being said; it sure sounds like a fuel issue. Have you checked the O-ring and seal on the fuel filter housing on the engine? Those are notorious for getting distorted or pinched and will let the fuel pump suck air, especially under load. Take your airbox cover off and double check this and also verify that you don't have any pinched fuel lines in there as well. That is also common since things are kind of a tight fit where the OMS pump mounts....

Good luck and keep us posted, you'll get it sooner or later! :)

alnuts
01-09-2011, 10:55 AM
Put vacuum gage on gas hose just before motor sound like fuel pumps sucking to hard.On second thought put fuel psi gage on fuel line and watch fuel psi after fuel pump..

JimmyG31b
01-09-2011, 06:03 PM
Just curious, have you verified that ALL 6 cylinders are firing when your at speed? By priming the bulb (in case this isn't a fuel issue) you could be forcing more fuel into the cylinders and covering another problem; it may not sound rational, but I've had engines with intermittent spark issues on one or two cyl's that would be carried by the good cyl's if you "overfueled" them...may want to verify this if everything on the fuel system keeps checking out.

That being said; it sure sounds like a fuel issue. Have you checked the O-ring and seal on the fuel filter housing on the engine? Those are notorious for getting distorted or pinched and will let the fuel pump suck air, especially under load. Take your airbox cover off and double check this and also verify that you don't have any pinched fuel lines in there as well. That is also common since things are kind of a tight fit where the OMS pump mounts....

Good luck and keep us posted, you'll get it sooner or later! :)
I guess the only thing i have left to replace is the short line coming off the fuel filter on the engine to the primer bulb...but why do i have a oil alarm now?

mdwstson
01-09-2011, 06:19 PM
...but why do i have a oil alarm now?

Probably have an air bubble at the sensor on the pump, just apply pressure to the oil tank primer bulb with it running and it will probably go away. If you disconnected the oil tank permanently then unplug the 5 pin connector to the OMS pump.

Have you checked the O-rings and seals at the fuel filter on the motor yet? Trust me, they will cause problems. ;)

JimmyG31b
01-09-2011, 06:42 PM
Probably have an air bubble at the sensor on the pump, just apply pressure to the oil tank primer bulb with it running and it will probably go away. If you disconnected the oil tank permanently then unplug the 5 pin connector to the OMS pump.

Have you checked the O-rings and seals at the fuel filter on the motor yet? Trust me, they will cause problems. ;)

I pumped that ball also but its hard as a rock and the alarm didn't come on when i ran it hard but later on while retrieving decoys (idle) it came on then again running in at higher rpm. I have had that filter off several times but never looked at the o ring, i'll take note tomorrow when i check her out again

JimmyG31b
01-10-2011, 08:47 AM
Put vacuum gage on gas hose just before motor sound like fuel pumps sucking to hard.On second thought put fuel psi gage on fuel line and watch fuel psi after fuel pump..

I understand the vacuum gauge but how do you install a pressure gauge after the full pump?

JimmyG31b
01-10-2011, 06:58 PM
Ok could this be my problem...there is a small nick out of the fuel filter "o" ring
http://www.sportfishermen.com/photos/data/500/medium/IMG_04001.jpg

cbremer
01-10-2011, 07:22 PM
if it is grey fuel line,, i can assure you it is most likely the inside collapsing. I tried those and got maybe 100 gallons through it before it collapsed on the inside

mdwstson
01-10-2011, 07:28 PM
Ok could this be my problem...there is a small nick out of the fuel filter "o" ring
http://www.sportfishermen.com/photos/data/500/medium/IMG_04001.jpg

Could very well be; only one way to find out! ;)

As far as the alarm goes; if you are now reconnected to the oil tank, it is probably because of the temperatures that you are using the boat in. Cold oil is thick and hard to draw, especially at lower speeds. A synthetic or "blended synthetic" oil will flow better at lower temperatures and most likely eliminate the alarm issue.

Keep us posted.

REZ
01-10-2011, 09:04 PM
I wonder where that missing o-ring sliver is ??? if that isnt the cause just run a line from the new 5gal tank right to the pump eliminating evrything in between.

JimmyG31b
01-10-2011, 09:45 PM
I wonder where that missing o-ring sliver is ??? if that isnt the cause just run a line from the new 5gal tank right to the pump eliminating evrything in between.

read my post second from the top on page 4, been there done that! Thank you and everyones help i hope this is it

alnuts
01-11-2011, 06:00 AM
I understand the vacuum gauge but how do you install a pressure gauge after the full pump?

If its fuel injected on the fuel rail service port tap if its carb buy one of the little psi gages from auto speed shop about the size of a bottle cap and cut it in the fuel line. :roll

JimmyG31b
01-16-2011, 10:19 PM
Another week and no progress,add to the list fuel filter, o rings, re routed new oil and fuel lines & OEM primer bulb!!! I quit cant be fixed! I had twin Yanmars in my 31 Bertram for 10 years and never had a problem going to buy a Jap motor!

Justtuggin
01-17-2011, 02:26 AM
Sorry to hear all your troubles hope your killing some ducks great boat though id get a merc

GulfC
01-17-2011, 05:50 AM
Jimmy, I haven't followed everything through but it sounds like you have something, maybe a very tiny piece of trash in the engine side of fuel flow. It's small enough that it doesn't restrict enough to affect idle but once demand goes high enough, it is forced up and obstructs a fuel port. When you pump the bulb, you're overpowering the restriction enough to get flow high enough again. Even that missing piece of seal above could do it in just the wrong place.

I agree with others, great job on that boat!! You deserve good power after all that; it'll happen.

JimmyG31b
11-13-2011, 10:07 PM
Almost a year later and I found the PROBLEM Outboard1 AKA Blackbird ...WARNING don't do business with this company!!! After being frustrated all winter about how the engine ran right out of the crate, then in the summer it wouldn't start so I took it to a certified Evenrude/Johnson dealer it needed a power pack (used one supplied by Outboard 1) was no good . The fuel problem was cured by replacing the used junk fuel pumps Outboard 1 sent me (2 ) with a new oem pump and now it runs without cutting out at high rpm's. I called repetitively and gave them every opportunity to take care of the problem to no avail. I did check around to find out there reputation before i purchased the engine ($6500.00) but had no idea they changed there name to Outboard 1 from Blackbird Ind. and now I know why! Two names with ONE bad reputation!!! The Johnson 150 HP outboard was supposed to be a rebuilt like new outboard with warranty I got a pieced together (BTW the carbs were a mismatch and out of tune) piece of s#!t!!!

outboardtech
11-14-2011, 05:28 AM
dammit man they strike again

mackaroni
11-14-2011, 06:44 AM
I was told, first thing take off fill cap. Pump up your bulb. If it collapes it is a supply side problem. then for from there

JimmyG31b
11-14-2011, 03:05 PM
I was told, first thing take off fill cap. Pump up your bulb. If it collapes it is a supply side problem. then for from there

Mackaroni the problem was with the co I purchased the motor from Outboard 1 / Blackbirdh ttp://www.thehulltruth.com/images/smilies/mad.gif they suck!!!



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0