The Boating Forum - Advice 36-43ft (Open,Express,Express Hardtop) Zeus or IPS

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Wyattholz
10-22-2010, 06:37 AM
I am looking for a 36-43ft multipurpose boat. The boat has to have IPS or Zeus. A couple of must are the ability to drive the boat from a lower level helm area (like a Express boat), want to be able to fish (handle rough water) while at the same time relax in comfort. I have seen some Express hardtop such as Cabo 44, Luhrs 41, Riviera 43 and the new Viking 42 but wanted to see if you all new of anything else that I might be missing.

Overall, just looking for a sportfishing boat that is family/cruising friendly. Suggestions please or thoughts!!!!!

Thx


JoeyM
10-22-2010, 07:06 AM
Ocean Billfish 37?

Karl2
10-22-2010, 07:23 AM
Ocean Billfish 37?

Second that. Ocean has built a couple of 37' with IPS. Awsome performance and economy.

Karl2


Esuomm1
10-22-2010, 07:28 AM
First one that came to my mind too, 37' Billfish.

I guess that makes it X3.

Good luck shopping.

J

chrisjb
10-22-2010, 07:50 AM
IPS v. Zeus. I look at it more as a Volvo vs. Cummins/merc decision.

Wyattholz
10-22-2010, 10:33 AM
What are yall's thoughts on Rampage boats???

TunaTeaser1
10-22-2010, 12:06 PM
Wyatt, sent you a private message.

Esuomm1
10-22-2010, 01:50 PM
Don't ask about Rampage. You'll get as many opinions as there are stars in the sky. Just do a search on this site to see what I mean.

Good luck.

jdm61
10-22-2010, 02:51 PM
Personally, I would take Luhrs off your short list. Even an Ocean would be better.:rofl: Between Viking and Cabo, I would go with Viking. To me, Cabo has always been like Bertram and Viking's fat sister.:grin:

Capt. B
05-17-2011, 03:59 PM
Just like to know your take on why Luhrs sportfishing boats are not worthy of mention?

I apologies for misprinting your name "jdm61"

richard_cano34
05-17-2011, 04:04 PM
Check out spencer yachts they have a real nice rig on there boat with ips drives looks really nice seavee also has gotten into the ips drive system aswell on there 39, 43 and i heard about the 34 single pod but im really impressed with the volvo over the zeus.

xyzzy
05-17-2011, 04:10 PM
Spencer 43 with IPS is awesome!

CMP
05-17-2011, 04:16 PM
Check out spencer yachts they have a real nice rig on there boat with ips drives looks really nice seavee also has gotten into the ips drive system aswell on there 39, 43 and i heard about the 34 single pod but im really impressed with the volvo over the zeus.

X2. I was lucky enough to get a ride on the first Spencer 43 they did with IPS (twin 600) at the Miami show several years ago and it was amazing. This year I spent some time with the Spencer guys and Ed from Vovlo who supervised the build on the 74 Spencer that was there. Triple IPS 900-what a machine. IPS v. Zues is easy for me. The zues/cummins thing is cobbled together with far too many complicated parts. IPS is a system, designed as such and far more efficient, as far as I've seen...

CMP

flbluerunner
05-17-2011, 04:28 PM
I agree that IPS is a system and when you have a problem you turn to one source.
I have looked and driven many of the Zeus/IPS boats up to the Hat 60 with Zeus.
The Spencer is rated very well.
The Luhrs 37 is a little high in the bow but does provide 2 salons in a 37 foot boat.
This forum will always bash Luhrs, they are what they are and 1/2 of the price of the others.
My pockets are just not deep enough.
The 2006 IPS Luhrs is my 2nd 38. I now have over 6400 hours on 2 different 38 Luhrs.
Look at the Brooks 34, I am sure he would build a bigger hull.

Justin_NJ
05-17-2011, 04:36 PM
People bash Luhrs for some of the older hull issues that they had and the 41 convertable disaster a few years back. They have come a very very long way from what they were, granted they are not a Cabo or Viking.

For the money, you get a decent boat....

Would I buy one again, maybe, depending on what I wanted to purchase at the time. If you are looking for new, the Luhrs 41 is no longer built buy you might find one. They are in the progress of working on a new 43 but it's not going to be out until fall 2012.

As far as Zues vs IPS, well, you now have a third option which is ZF's pod drive that can be mated to whatever engine the builder decides. I saw the 35 henriques at the A/C boat show in January with ZF Pods!

Zues is also built by ZF, however they are built specifically to Cummins specs.

Good luck with your search!

zgfulcher
05-17-2011, 06:38 PM
45 foot willis173861

173862

offshorebri
05-17-2011, 07:07 PM
42 Henriques...............Half the price of the Viking............NOT at all half the boat!!

mz06907
05-17-2011, 08:10 PM
SeaVee 43 ips is a sick boat

mz06907
05-17-2011, 08:11 PM
Seavee 43 ips.

LandIDetailing
05-18-2011, 06:08 AM
Did some work on a 43 Torres the other day that boat had a sick hull design and a huge cockpit area but it wasnt running the system you were looking for but really nice and spacious boat.

djcxxx
05-18-2011, 07:38 AM
The Tiara 3600 Open is now an IPS drive boat. Something to add to your list.

xyzzy
05-18-2011, 08:26 AM
The SeaVee 43 IPS is nowhere near a Viking or Spencer as well, but still a good boat, but in a much different class.

Capt. KJB
05-18-2011, 08:42 AM
There is a test of the Viking 42 in the new issue of Boating Magazine and of course they praised it (as they do with everything they test) however in looking at the performance numbers I was surprised to see that it was relatively slow at cruise (22kts.) and inefficient (.61 nMPG) compared to straight drive boats.

Something else I didn't like is the placement of the joystick as it was mounted in a compartment and you had to reach down into it to use it. Sure when all the compartments are closed at the dock the helm looks nice and clean but that set-up just doesn't seem very user friendly. Who wants to run with a door of a cabinet open to be able to access controls or your electronics?

Karl2
05-18-2011, 09:27 AM
"...however in looking at the performance numbers I was surprised to see that it was relatively slow at cruise (22kts.) and inefficient (.61 nMPG)..."

Yes, I saw the test. 2x600 hp in a 42' Open, WOT of 30.8 knots, cruising at 22 and burning 36 gph.......Amazingly slow and inefficient.

Karl

Capt. KJB
05-18-2011, 09:38 AM
Yes, I saw the test. 2x600 hp in a 42' Open, WOT of 30.8 knots, cruising at 22 and burning 36 gph.......Amazingly slow and inefficient.

Karl

Also surprising was the fact that the 600's were the upgraded power and max hp for the boat. Can't imagine how poorly the standard 440's or upgraded 480's perform. Not sure what exactly Viking was thinking with this set-up. Can't imagine that it will sell very well at all.

xyzzy
05-18-2011, 10:31 AM
There is a test of the Viking 42 in the new issue of Boating Magazine and of course they praised it (as they do with everything they test) however in looking at the performance numbers I was surprised to see that it was relatively slow at cruise (22kts.) and inefficient (.61 nMPG) compared to straight drive boats.

Something else I didn't like is the placement of the joystick as it was mounted in a compartment and you had to reach down into it to use it. Sure when all the compartments are closed at the dock the helm looks nice and clean but that set-up just doesn't seem very user friendly. Who wants to run with a door of a cabinet open to be able to access controls or your electronics?

That's kind of the point -- you dont use the joystick when you're running. If you want Viking to move the joystick it's not an issue. I'm sure they'll put it in the head if you really want to.

The only major issue I see with the Viking (properly powered with the 6) is the big price tag.

kitebuz
05-18-2011, 10:41 AM
42 Henriques...............Half the price of the Viking............NOT at all half the boat!!


x2 - in the maine coaster walk-around pilot house version :thumbsup:

TDL
05-18-2011, 10:59 AM
I am also interested in pod drive and have talked with an owner of Formula 40 IPS, he loves the manipulability of pod but is not aware of real-world difference in efficiency. Maybe the whole "more efficient" scheme is just marketing.

The other concern I have is the logistic. How many facilities in the east coast know how to fix and handle pod? My hauler told me that when he was lunching a 43' go-fast boat down to FL a month ago, he saw a pod drive boat slammed its drives on the ramp while the mover pulled the boat out. He said because of the pod, the stern was 10' away from the bunker, combined with the weight of the drives and the slope that made it difficult to handle even for professionals. Anyone heard about this story?

Justin_NJ
05-18-2011, 01:58 PM
I am also interested in pod drive and have talked with an owner of Formula 40 IPS, he loves the manipulability of pod but is not aware of real-world difference in efficiency. Maybe the whole "more efficient" scheme is just marketing.

The other concern I have is the logistic. How many facilities in the east coast know how to fix and handle pod? My hauler told me that when he was lunching a 43' go-fast boat down to FL a month ago, he saw a pod drive boat slammed its drives on the ramp while the mover pulled the boat out. He said because of the pod, the stern was 10' away from the bunker, combined with the weight of the drives and the slope that made it difficult to handle even for professionals. Anyone heard about this story?

The theory behind pods being more efficient is the HP requirements for the same size boat are reduced when you go from PODS to straight inboards.

Take a look at a Cabo 40. If you get Zues pods, the engine it's paired with is 600HP. The other options for non-pod are 715 to 800 hp. depending on which inboard has the same performance (speed / top end) as the pod boat, you are talking a total of 230 to 400 hp less to do the same job. That should be a fuel savings.

I am sure there are going to be lots of POD stories, and until various equipment such as long haul trailers are built to handle them, you will hear more and more situations.

Capt. KJB
05-18-2011, 02:26 PM
That's kind of the point -- you dont use the joystick when you're running. If you want Viking to move the joystick it's not an issue. I'm sure they'll put it in the head if you really want to.

The only major issue I see with the Viking (properly powered with the 6) is the big price tag.

23 knot cruise is properly powered? It is a dog by today's standards. Most boats in this class cruise at 30kts. Look at the 43 Tiara Open with 715 Cummins, 29.5 kt. cruise at .71 nMPG and $50,000 less. Granted the quality is not the same as a Viking but it is no Bayliner. The whole idea behind the pod drives are better speed with less HP and greater efficiency. This boat doesn't give the buyer either one.

Again, I am not sure what Viking was thinking with this boat.

ABetterBroker
05-18-2011, 03:09 PM
No to the IPS. I just dont like them facing forward and they clean water is total crap to me. Volvo has marketed that system on total BS when it comes to the increased fuel economy they claim you get. They did not do an apples to apples comparison. The Cabo 44 is a very cool boat and you would be impressed with that. I have one that should arrive at my dock for sale in August or Sept. More than welcome to come take a look at her being built at the factory. The Spencer is in a different category in regard to pricing. Tiara makes a fine yacht as does Viking and the same goes for the 40 Cabo that was stated above. I think if you choose between those three you will have no regrets regardless of your choice. Feel free to PM if you want to discuss this in depth. The Volvo thing with efficiency is total crap!!! Trust me I have seen the fuel burn on both in person while out. Not the case at all!! I would go for Zues with out a doubt!!

TDL
05-18-2011, 03:46 PM
The theory behind pods being more efficient is the HP requirements for the same size boat are reduced when you go from PODS to straight inboards.

.

I partially agreed with POD's logic. But I just cannot find a head to head comparison between the same boat, same engines, Straight vs POD. To me, if a boat runs 25% faster with PODs versus straight IB at the same rpm on the same engines, then I would agree that 25% efficiency is achieved. I just don't think comparing Cat 12 715 hp and Cummins 600HP Zues is apple to apple. Maybe I am just stubborn.

Actually I am always attracted to new technologies. I think POD drive in Freeman 40 Cat would be awesome. Overall straight IB is an old technology from 19 century or even older. I wonder if there is such a thing like a gear box hangs on the strut with bevel gears that covert the shaft angles to 0 at the propeller's axis. Maybe a dueprop? Sorry to derail this thread..:grin:

jdm61
05-18-2011, 05:23 PM
The SeaVee 43 IPS is nowhere near a Viking or Spencer as well, but still a good boat, but in a much different class.
I heard that Sea Vee and ZF are working on a combination single pod drive and bow thruster system for the 34 to give it almost the same kind of manueverability as the twin pod systems.

Karl2
05-19-2011, 05:40 AM
...The Volvo thing with efficiency is total crap!!! Trust me I have seen the fuel burn on both in person while out. Not the case at all!! I would go for Zues with out a doubt!!

Disagree but if you have any actual facts I will change my mind. I have been on about a dozen IPS boats, fished on a few and been on a few Zeus boats too. In all cases that I have observed both pods offer increased fuel economy. I some cases to an amazing extent.
I have not been on any Zeus boat with higher power than the QSB-480.

I submitt that the issue with the Viking discussed earlier is that the Zeus folks are trying to put too much hp on small wheels and they loose efficiency. This can be observed to an even greater extent on in a recent test of a Meridian 5xx something with Zeus and QSM11. In both the Viking and the Meridian cases a semi smart builder could do better (from an efficiency stand point) with the same hp in-boards, decent gear ratio and quality props.

Volvo appears to have taken a different (and better) path; When they go up in hp the pod grows in order to swing bigger wheels.

There are several examples of US builders taking a boat with in-boards and convert the propulsion to IPS (There may be Zeus examples too). One that can be Googled and studied: Formula 45 PC. I'm very familiar with this boat and from a hull bottom or displacement perspective it has not change in many years to an extent that would impact performance. In a test in PMY the boat ran 32.5 knots and burned 58 gph with 575 hp in-boards. Boattest.com tested the same boat with IPS power (435 hp) and the boat ran 32.9 knots and burned 41.8 gph.
With 32% more power the IB powered boat burned 38% more fuel and was even a tad slower.

There is also a test in the public domain were two identical boats was tested. One with IPS and one with Zeus (Four Winns or perhaps Doral on Boattest.com ???). If I recall correctly the Zeus boat had 480 hp, the IPS boat 435, the IPS boat ran the same speed with less hp and accelerated faster

Facts is a strange thing; one can elect to ignore them or disagree with them, they are still true.

Karl

Justin_NJ
05-19-2011, 08:05 AM
There is also a test in the public domain were two identical boats one with IPS and one with Zeus (Four Winns or perhaps Doral on Boattest.com ???). If I recall correctly the Zeus boat had 480 hp, the IPS boat 435, the IPS boat ran the same speed with less hp and accelerated faster

Facts is a strange thing; one can elect to ignore them or disagree with them, they are still true.

Karl


I wonder if the IPS in the above example performed better due to the fact that the props are forward facing and hit the water with no drag coming off the pods as the zues and ZF pods do.

xyzzy
05-19-2011, 09:58 AM
Release 46 with Zeus drives as well is a bitchin boat. 40 knots, 34knot cruise, excellent economy.

Loose Crew
05-19-2011, 11:18 AM
There is a test of the Viking 42 in the new issue of Boating Magazine and of course they praised it (as they do with everything they test) however in looking at the performance numbers I was surprised to see that it was relatively slow at cruise (22kts.) and inefficient (.61 nMPG) compared to straight drive boats.


Gents - saw that article on the Viking and performance stats are wrong. I've run the 42 Open with the 600 Cummins Zeus and the cruise was north of 30 knots with 7 or 8 people on board. Not sure where they got their numbers but it wouldn't be the first time a boating magazine got their info wrong. I often see them quote cruise as maximum efficiency, not rated cruise speed. Anyway, just wanted to clear that up.

Regarding the original question - can you give us an idea of what your budget is and where the boat will be used?

williscustoms
05-19-2011, 10:21 PM
just get a custom boat built exactly how u want

Loose Crew
05-23-2011, 02:08 PM
23 knot cruise is properly powered? It is a dog by today's standards. Most boats in this class cruise at 30kts. Look at the 43 Tiara Open with 715 Cummins, 29.5 kt. cruise at .71 nMPG and $50,000 less. Granted the quality is not the same as a Viking but it is no Bayliner. The whole idea behind the pod drives are better speed with less HP and greater efficiency. This boat doesn't give the buyer either one.

Again, I am not sure what Viking was thinking with this boat.

All - thought you might want to know why the performance numbers for the Viking 42 in Boating Magazine were wrong. The magazine was supplied with performance numbers in knots - but then attempted to convert them to knots (as if they were supplied with MPH). Since one knot is 1.1507995 MPH you can see why the performance would indeed look slow. Hence the 30.85 knots wide open is actually more like 35.5 knots. and the 26.3 knots at cruise is actually 30.3 knots. You should see a correction in an issue in the near future. Hope that clears up any confusion.



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