The Boating Forum - Big sportfish sinks off of South Carolina coast...

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stimmy
01-02-2010, 12:05 PM
it was a example, I said imagine the quality.

Im still waiting to get your list of manufactures that went out of business for using cored hulls.

Its not that they are experimenting, its building larger boats and trying to make them lighter and use more power, so call it experimenting or whatever you want to call it but someone has to try and fail before others can succeed, this is the unfortunate reality of it. So thats what I mean by you can be the company with the balls to try something different or you can stay on the sidelines playing it safe and never know. Im not saying one is better then other, but you end up falling into one or the other category.

I didn't see it mentioned but it's ironic Bruno35 makes a reference to boat companies going out of business due to cored hull failures. Bruno Stillman made some of the best down east hulls EVER. I believe the Nauset 35 is built in the old Bruno 35 mold, sold after Bruno Stillman went out of business after losing a lawsuit over a failed balsa cored hull that caused loss of life.
I have 2 personal experiences with balsa cored hulls. The first is with my own 36' Harris, also a down east design. It has a solid hull but balsa cored decks, cabin sides and roof. At about 8 years old, enough water had leaked in around the window frames and roof and deck penetrations to force me to completely rebuild the cabin and most of the cockpit sole. Much of the balsa was brown mud between the F/G layers.
As soon as the water got in, it froze and thawed repeatedly in the Ct. winter, opening more and more avenues for water penetration until the balsa 2 to 3' from the penetrations was compromised. If it wasn't such a great SOLID hull, it would have been a throw away.
My second experience is with a friend's 31' Rampage which is ALL balsa cored. It is a mid 80's model that he bought used in the mid 90's. It passed a survey when he bought it. He used it a few years until the Volvo TAMD's started to smoke badly (go figure) so he put in a brand new pair for about $40,000.00. That was about 7 years ago and the new engines have about 100 hours on them. He has been afraid to take it out for 5 years since there are MANY cracks in the hull below the water line due to coring failure. The boat needs a new hull!
I will never own a cored hull. Period. I believe many (certainly NOT all) are time bombs waiting to explode. I consider my life (and even my wallet) too valuable to find the bad ones.;?


bruno35
01-02-2010, 01:01 PM
Airplanes have a shelve life on the airframe. After so many hours they are grounded. Also they are tested extensively at the expense of the Builder not the Consumer. not a good example. Are you telling us that cored hulls are still in the experimental and testing stage? Mfg's have been trying to use coring in hulls for at least 35 years. Further can you show me any threads or forums where a solid glass hull has had so much attention for structural failure. please keep it to the big guys no wal-mart boats if you know what i mean.
ps. Bruno & Stillman and Harris to name a couple.The PS in this post refers to an earlier post to Rybo when i said i could think of a few boat mfg's that went out of business because of core issues. That said Yes my 35 Nauset(solid glass) is the old Bruno 35 mold, Designed by Royell Lowell, your Harris was also a design of his. He was the Guru of Downeast design (imo). Are you sure your Harris did not have a cored hull ? Alot of them did. as i stated before if coring was so good why do we here about it all the time. If it worked you should not hear about it at all. heck people probably wouldn't even know was in their boat. ps I had a bruno 42 with core and other boats with coring. I am sure there are many people on this forum that have had experience with coring wether it was a hull, deck, cabin top, transom or gunnels. Its funny how we all no where the stuff is. not really! I think the negative outways the positive when it comes to core.;?

obbayer
01-02-2010, 03:48 PM
Bertram balsa core story from 2003

http://www.yachtingmagazine.com/article.jsp?ID=21014983


hesterrp
01-02-2010, 06:39 PM
I am glad to not be entering the debate over Bertram's hulls. Rather, to share an unfortunate but not tragic story of a very experienced local boater which may lead to increased vigilance on the part of the readers. A week ago, a 25'(I think) Grady White all but sunk (capsized) after a livewell fell apart while they were running. I don't think they realized that as the cause, and by the time they noticed all the water against the transom, it seemed too late for intervention. The bilge pump was working but overwhelmed by the water influx. Apparently was filling up pretty fast. Don't know whether there was a 2nd pump, or a high water alarm.

They were very fortunate that there was a marine police boat very near by, and they were able to get off without going in the drink. The water temperature here is currently about 40 degrees.

There is an in-depth thread re this on the Virginia angler section of TF. I am not bringing this up merely to publicize someone's misfortunes, but rather to encourage people to check their plumbing, check their thru-hulls, and give some serious consideration to closing your thru-hulls, at least in cold water, if you are not using your livewell or salt-water washdown.

Peace, and Happy New Year.

http://www.tidalfish.com/forums/showthread.php/278924-Playin-hookie-!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!-Distress-call

lingcod
01-03-2010, 07:02 AM
Bertram balsa core story from 2003

http://www.yachtingmagazine.com/article.jsp?ID=21014983

From the article:

"A cut was made into the hull, and the balsa core poured out like a hearty bowl of Cream of Wheat. It was thoroughly rotted, and the outer skin of the fiberglass had delaminated. Modern cored hulls have solid fiberglass areas for through-hull fittings, but Bertram had simply drilled into the balsa, allowing water to wick through the core. Worse, the chines were left open, allowing water to move throughout the hull."

Speaks volumes.

stimmy
01-03-2010, 09:42 AM
The PS in this post refers to an earlier post to Rybo when i said i could think of a few boat mfg's that went out of business because of core issues. That said Yes my 35 Nauset(solid glass) is the old Bruno 35 mold, Designed by Royell Lowell, your Harris was also a design of his. He was the Guru of Downeast design (imo). Are you sure your Harris did not have a cored hull ? Alot of them did. as i stated before if coring was so good why do we here about it all the time. If it worked you should not hear about it at all. heck people probably wouldn't even know was in their boat. ps I had a bruno 42 with core and other boats with coring. I am sure there are many people on this forum that have had experience with coring wether it was a hull, deck, cabin top, transom or gunnels. Its funny how we all no where the stuff is. not really! I think the negative outways the positive when it comes to core.;?
I know Lowell designed the hulls for Bruno and for Harris Cuttyhunk which I believe became Nauset. Did he design the Harris also? When I first went to Florida to look at the Harris I eventually purchased, I was expecting a round bilge like a Bruno, but mine was built by Harris of Truro in Cape Cod and has square chines. Obviously it has the same beautiful (at least to me) topside looks.
And my Harris is definitely all solid hull. I know the boat WAAY more intimately than I had ever planned.

ocean 38
01-03-2010, 10:25 AM
From the article:

"A cut was made into the hull, and the balsa core poured out like a hearty bowl of Cream of Wheat. It was thoroughly rotted, and the outer skin of the fiberglass had delaminated. Modern cored hulls have solid fiberglass areas for through-hull fittings, but Bertram had simply drilled into the balsa, allowing water to wick through the core. Worse, the chines were left open, allowing water to move throughout the hull."

Speaks volumes.

yes but this was in the 90s when bertram first experimented with a fully cored hull with the 72 of which only 5 were built. Bertrams now as stated before are only cored above the waterline.

greg

bruno35
01-03-2010, 10:25 AM
I know Lowell designed the hulls for Bruno and for Harris Cuttyhunk which I believe became Nauset. Did he design the Harris also? When I first went to Florida to look at the Harris I eventually purchased, I was expecting a round bilge like a Bruno, but mine was built by Harris of Truro in Cape Cod and has square chines. Obviously it has the same beautiful (at least to me) topside looks.
And my Harris is definitely all solid hull. I know the boat WAAY more intimately than I had ever planned.Yes he did. He also Designed the JC 31 (now Eastern) which also has square chine. How long ago did you buy your boat ? I think i may have looked at her.

PowerYacht
01-03-2010, 10:59 AM
can someone tell me a boat builder (popular brand) who today has no coring in the sides...

jethro1
01-03-2010, 11:10 AM
Airplanes have a shelve life on the airframe. After so many hours they are grounded.

Where did you read this?

What is the CFR that mandates a finite life in either cycles or hours?

Is this a new law?

stimmy
01-03-2010, 12:46 PM
Yes he did. He also Designed the JC 31 (now Eastern) which also has square chine. How long ago did you buy your boat ? I think i may have looked at her.

It was the "Dancer" when I bought it in Ft Lauderdale in about 1988. It was a confiscated drug runner. Harris custom built it with a hidden hold ahead of the engine bulkhead. The only access was through a hidden hatch under the galley cabinets.
When I got it home to Ct. and discovered the drug hold, I cut a hatch through the cabin sole so the CG wouldn't confiscate the boat from me.
The previous owner had gone so far as to line the entire drug hold (which would have easily held over a ton of dope) with aluminum so it would look like a fuel tank if the CG drilled an inspection hole. The boat has real fuel tanks of about 1000 gallons. At hull speed, she'll go about 3000 miles without refueling.

keezdisease
01-03-2010, 01:57 PM
;?jethro,
yes some airframes do have a life expeectancy on them then they must go exp. Not sure which ones but for some reason some bonanzas come to mind????

See It
01-03-2010, 02:06 PM
You are probably thinking about the twin engine Beechcraft "Bamboo Bomber"

bruno35
01-03-2010, 03:08 PM
Where did you read this?

What is the CFR that mandates a finite life in either cycles or hours?

Is this a new law? I did not read it anywhere. A good friend who flies blackhawks was talking about it a little back. but since you ask aircraft (non-pressurized) i do believe have life span hours then they need to be re-certified if not they can not fly (grounded) as far as pressurized cycles i don't know that much. I could be wrong.;? My point in the post that you refer to was that you can't compare apples and oranges, and that the consumer is paying the price in the boat coring experiment.

bruno35
01-03-2010, 03:17 PM
It was the "Dancer" when I bought it in Ft Lauderdale in about 1988. It was a confiscated drug runner. Harris custom built it with a hidden hold ahead of the engine bulkhead. The only access was through a hidden hatch under the galley cabinets.
When I got it home to Ct. and discovered the drug hold, I cut a hatch through the cabin sole so the CG wouldn't confiscate the boat from me.
The previous owner had gone so far as to line the entire drug hold (which would have easily held over a ton of dope) with aluminum so it would look like a fuel tank if the CG drilled an inspection hole. The boat has real fuel tanks of about 1000 gallons. At hull speed, she'll go about 3000 miles without refueling.Wow would have liked to been a fly on the wall with that one. No i looked at one about 6 years back. It was a charter set-up. single screw. the keel was cut back for a twin screw but then they would add a stainless pipe skeg.

StabiUSA
01-03-2010, 03:35 PM
can someone tell me a boat builder (popular brand) who today has no coring in the sides...

Plenty of aluminum boats out there 8)

http://www.aluminumalloyboats.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=169

Mine Now
01-03-2010, 03:56 PM
Unfortunately, Bruno, In the boating industry, the customer, is quite often the test bed for the product.

I think this is true for just about any industry out there. There's always new materials or processes that get pushed forward by enthusiam. Sometimes they work and sometimes they dont.

lingcod
01-03-2010, 08:27 PM
yes but this was in the 90s when bertram first experimented with a fully cored hull with the 72 of which only 5 were built. Bertrams now as stated before are only cored above the waterline.

greg

I know, but my point is that for a company that has such a strong perceived pedigree like Bertram, to then make such elementary and egregious (!!!) design and manufacturing errors would require far more than just some line worker arbitrarily stickin' a hole through a balsa cored hull and installing a through-hull. This reflects tacit endorsement of a whole lot of folks, all the way to the top. (And if not to the top, that speaks volumes of yet another ilk.)

I'm aware that the "experiment" was quite a long time ago, but what it does reflect is the DNA of their thinking--and practice--at the time. Of a company with a long history of boat building no less. Therefore the question begs . . . under current Ferretti ownership, how has this essential, DNA thinking been substantially changed? And how do we know?

Perhaps it has. Perhaps it has not.

Evidence . . . always demands a verdict.

PowerYacht
01-04-2010, 02:58 AM
it is easy to put the blame on Ferretti, but to say it fair they manage to resurge the company and make it back to selling boats
Bertram was at shambles in the nineties, since Ferretti took over in the end of 1998 the company has revamped its production first to about ten boats a year, then twenty plus, and lastly 50 plus
they also created a whole new line which IMO looks very good
I think the fact that they are building lighter and faster boats, is just a trend of the market demand, you cannot sell a thirty knots sportfish in bigger fifty foot sizes today, people just want more speed and want to hear hight tech talking too
now that two 630s have come wrong seems for everyone to see

stimmy
01-04-2010, 01:07 PM
Wow would have liked to been a fly on the wall with that one. No i looked at one about 6 years back. It was a charter set-up. single screw. the keel was cut back for a twin screw but then they would add a stainless pipe skeg.


The story told me by Ron Tarr, the head of manufacturing at Harris before the luxury tax bankrupted them, was that a guy showed up in 1984 @ their plant with a pile of cash for the deposit, specified what he wanted in the boat, then left. About 90 days after the boat was finished, the buyer showed up with a suitcase full of cash and a flatbed tractor trailer. Ron said while he was out in the yard loading the boat on the flatbed, Harris's file including buyer details mysteriously disappeared.
After that, Ron had not heard anything again about the boat until 4 years later when I called him with the hull # asking about it. He laughed and said "Oh yeah, I remember THAT one."
The broker selling the boat to me said the original buyer was in jail in Canada for smuggling drugs across the border.
It's a great hull and saved my butt when I was caught out in the start of the perfect storm. I took 15' waves over my head on the open fly bridge, but I made it into Montauk from the Ranger in 50 kt winds.

White Bear
01-07-2010, 10:29 AM
Perhaps it struck something large owned by the government. That might explain the silence of all involved and negotiations may well be underway to settle all claims equally quietly while the intensity of speculation diverts attention from the main event.

JJC
01-07-2010, 12:02 PM
can someone tell me a boat builder (popular brand) who today has no coring in the sides...

That's a good question. The only production companies I can think of off the top of my head that use no coring in the hulls are Fleming and Nordhavn. As far as I know all of the well known production sportfishing boats (at least in the 35' and up range) use coring at least in the sides, and Viking is even coring the bottoms now.

Raybo Marine NY
01-07-2010, 12:32 PM
Perhaps it struck something large owned by the government. That might explain the silence of all involved and negotiations may well be underway to settle all claims equally quietly while the intensity of speculation diverts attention from the main event.


maybe Elvis was at the helm ? :o

Rickiretardo
01-13-2010, 05:57 PM
Blog Virgin ravished by Yacht Forum

Hi

Until last night I was virgin when it comes to blogs. Last night I had a great time on my first date with Yacht Forum bantering with their arm chair captains about the sinking of that 63 Bertram off South Carolina and what role the Bill Perry artificial reef debris, tons of sunken ships and subway cars, might have played. The editor of the blog has been totally abused by somebody who told him his “exclusive” photos of the sunken Absolutely were fresh, taken on Nov. 11 after the Nov. 6 sinking. And that is what he told his elderly readers. And they started speculating how bad the boat had faired as the result of the mysterious collision. The captain did not see what he hit or know what it was. But looking at the photos, like we all did, it seemed like an awful lot of damage from one impact incident. So, like the rest of them, I speculated and wrote a piece on my blog-- south east shipping news --- just google it—titled Not Your Daddy’s Bertram.
Then I learned that the yacht had been down for three weeks, part of it during that Tropical Storm Ida, before it was found and down longer before it was photographed. That changed a lot, I suggested. It explained why the transom was missing and part of the hull crushed. So when everybody sobered up this morning they started feeling kinda silly having spent the past few weeks and all that blab and speculation based on those misleading photographs. Carl the blog god didn’t much like it when he discovered the cat was out of the bag. So he banned me from his blog, and selectively edited the posts concerning the Bertram, deleting most of mine and making it seem like he always had the correct date and information about the damage to the yacht.
Then somebody, not me, accused him of capitalizing on the flood of speculators and the misfortune of Bertram, the captain and the owner to build traffic to his blog and attract more advertiser. At that point he decided that these new people who had entered the blog with honest information had corrupted the thread and it was time to shut it down. (That is what he said but this thread is like a drug, he can’t stop using it.)
So I learned that history can be rewritten in a matter of a few hours. Now he continues to display the meaningless photos. He says they were taken at the end of November, which is correct, but he fails to mention the wreck occurred Nov. 6 or that he had ever posted anything misleading about the chronology.

I sent Carl a friendly e-mail because he once labored on the Allen Family Plantation at Southern Boating where I was once editor. In it I also warned him about this guy --- Hatami Hatemi Hashemi, who seems to be the guy who goes by Shazam-- who actually sells knock-off Bertrams. I told him he had been stirring up the waters against Bertram without even buying the appropriate advertisement at YF first. Then I asked him if I could do penance, or submit to flogging to get back on Yacht Forum and talk about the dangers of these shallow water artificial reefs. But he didn’t respond. So if you guys are interested and it ain’t against the rules I’d love to talk about artificial reefs risks in shallow water on this forum.

Bly
01-13-2010, 06:20 PM
Blog Virgin ravished by Yacht Forum

Hi

Until last night I was virgin when it comes to blogs. Last night I had a great time on my first date with Yacht Forum bantering with their arm chair captains about the sinking of that 63 Bertram off South Carolina and what role the Bill Perry artificial reef debris, tons of sunken ships and subway cars, might have played. The editor of the blog has been totally abused by somebody who told him his “exclusive” photos of the sunken Absolutely were fresh, taken on Nov. 11 after the Nov. 6 sinking. And that is what he told his elderly readers. And they started speculating how bad the boat had faired as the result of the mysterious collision. The captain did not see what he hit or know what it was. But looking at the photos, like we all did, it seemed like an awful lot of damage from one impact incident. So, like the rest of them, I speculated and wrote a piece on my blog-- south east shipping news --- just google it—titled Not Your Daddy’s Bertram.
Then I learned that the yacht had been down for three weeks, part of it during that Tropical Storm Ida, before it was found and down longer before it was photographed. That changed a lot, I suggested. It explained why the transom was missing and part of the hull crushed. So when everybody sobered up this morning they started feeling kinda silly having spent the past few weeks and all that blab and speculation based on those misleading photographs. Carl the blog god didn’t much like it when he discovered the cat was out of the bag. So he banned me from his blog, and selectively edited the posts concerning the Bertram, deleting most of mine and making it seem like he always had the correct date and information about the damage to the yacht.
Then somebody, not me, accused him of capitalizing on the flood of speculators and the misfortune of Bertram, the captain and the owner to build traffic to his blog and attract more advertiser. At that point he decided that these new people who had entered the blog with honest information had corrupted the thread and it was time to shut it down. (That is what he said but this thread is like a drug, he can’t stop using it.)
So I learned that history can be rewritten in a matter of a few hours. Now he continues to display the meaningless photos. He says they were taken at the end of November, which is correct, but he fails to mention the wreck occurred Nov. 6 or that he had ever posted anything misleading about the chronology.

I sent Carl a friendly e-mail because he once labored on the Allen Family Plantation at Southern Boating where I was once editor. In it I also warned him about this guy --- Hatami Hatemi Hashemi, who seems to be the guy who goes by Shazam-- who actually sells knock-off Bertrams. I told him he had been stirring up the waters against Bertram without even buying the appropriate advertisement at YF first. Then I asked him if I could do penance, or submit to flogging to get back on Yacht Forum and talk about the dangers of these shallow water artificial reefs. But he didn’t respond. So if you guys are interested and it ain’t against the rules I’d love to talk about artificial reefs risks in shallow water on this forum.
Why would you state that the captain did not see what he hit or know what it was???????? The captain stated in a sworn meeting with the coast guard shortly after the accident that he HIT NOTHING. The bow opened up in a normal sea! Then the ferrettis stated that the boat hit the perry reef buoy and that it was the captains fault. Some on this thread agreed until they saw the plastic buoy with a scratch on it and the location of the sunken boat was more then 2 miles from that little plastic buoy! Some others here were ready to throw the captain under the bus until a few of us defended the only eye witness and the picture of the bouy came on the site! Who cares what you think about atificial reefs and risk in shallow water? I think you are a risk for trying to blame the captain again.

Rickiretardo
01-13-2010, 06:28 PM
Why would you state that the captain did not see what he hit or know what it was???????? The captain stated in a sworn meeting with the coast guard shortly after the accident that he HIT NOTHING. The bow opened up in a normal sea! Then the ferrettis stated that the boat hit the perry reef buoy and that it was the captains fault. Some on this thread agreed until they saw the plastic buoy with a scratch on it and the location of the sunken boat was more then 2 miles from that little plastic buoy! Some others here were ready to throw the captain under the bus until a few of us defended the only eye witness and the picture of the bouy came on the site! Who cares what you think about atificial reefs and risk in shallow water? I think you are a risk for trying to blame the captain again.

Same thing happened to my cousin. He borrowed mom's Pinto and when he brought it home with the entire front end smashed he told her it just folded in on itself, tugged to the left and stopped. But THERE WAS NOTHING that caused this to happen.
We took the cousin's word for it. Sometimes manufactured items just disentegrate because the wrong people worked on them!

thorman
01-13-2010, 06:38 PM
Lmao, joined Yacht forums 2 nights ago to make a post. Was promptly told I was too argumentative, and to go away. Had my account deleted, and have an email or two from god almighty overthere. He's currently bashing another New user this evening. The guy is a jerk.

all that not withstanding, is there any new real info on this ordeal?

Rickiretardo
01-13-2010, 07:15 PM
Lmao, joined Yacht forums 2 nights ago to make a post. Was promptly told I was too argumentative, and to go away. Had my account deleted, and have an email or two from god almighty overthere. He's currently bashing another New user this evening. The guy is a jerk.

all that not withstanding, is there any new real info on this ordeal?



Something is fishy!

First things first. The photos on Yacht Forum of the 63 Bertram sunk off Carolina were not taken Nov. 11, a few days after the Absolutely 63 Bertram yachtfish went down. They were taken long after Hurricane Ida turned Bill Perry Reef into a blender.


I am new to this forum and I share a historic and personal appreciation for Bertram yachts. I worked on one. You may know me from my days as editor at Florida Shipper or from The Boating News or a dozen other articles about boats and fishing over the past 30 years. You may remember I was a judge for the NMMA Innovation Awards for years along with Dean Clarke and Roger Marshall and Bill Pike among others. A friend got me interested in the sinking of Absolutely, the Bertram 63 off of Myrtle Beach at Bill Perry Reef on Nov.6. The Boating News was based in Charleston and I know a little bit about those waters just north and south of Frying Pan Shoals. The reason the Carolina boat beams are designed as they are is to repel the destructive, wet and pounding short chop that builds for over 30 miles across those shallows.
Bill Perry Reef is so shallow even at 25 miles off shore, it is a novice dive site, maybe 50 feet deep. In there are objects a hundred feet long and rather tall, shrimp boats and freighters and a fleet of subway cars.-- all the photos and words are at South East Shipping News -- google it- Anyway they toss these large objects on the bottom and let them drift where they may. I figured at first that Absolutely pounded through that mess, maybe hit something along the way and finally, slung the anchor over the side while the yachtbroker/captain/cassanova impressed his squeeze.
It takes a vast amount of care to operate a 63 Bertram at speed. It is very large and very fast. and few people have traveled at 35 knots on a yacht that big. But the flybridge is laid out like a living room and the helm is designed for socializing forward and watching the baits behind. You can’t see the bow unless you stand up and pay attention. He didn’t know where he was because, a diligent captain would not be powering through a novice dive site at that speed under any circumstances, unless he was sinking already or had no idea where he really was.

So he says he stuck the bow in a wave and the yacht yanked to the port and foredeck ripped back and the boat sank. He does not know why. Well if the anchor flew out and caught something or was bounced out by impact with that mystery buoy, then the pictures they have on Yacht Forum make it look like it was clothes-lined and sliced clean along the joint where the hull and bow cap fit together with a aluminum brace and screws.

What really matters to you bloggers is that the web site Yacht Forum.com for some reason said their "exclusive" photos of the submerged and badly damaged yacht were taken Nov. 11, within days of the Nov. 6 collision and sinking and before a major storm had the chance to pummel it into debris. In fact the hull was not located by SeaTow and photographers until Nov. 24 and no pictures were taken until Nov.29. In the mean time local scavengers diving the shallow wreck could have stripped the vessel or drug it around with grappling hooks to turn it over and ease access. After they left, extra-tropical storm IDA had her way with the wreck for 6 days tumbling through shallows amid the tons of other artificial reef debris.
The SC and NC natural resources people allow artificial reef builders to stack train cars, ships, and other debris in 40 feet of water without securing it. At Bill Perry only 2 of the 8 ships dumped on that site remain. No one knows how far all this stuff has tumbled and what kind of risk is poses.

Meanwhile, someone has maliciously attacked Bertram and its Italian owners as if they must build yachts strong enough to withstand the inadequate seamanship of a distracted captain and then must be strong enough for their sunken remains to withstand the weeks-long beating of a fierce storm. What a crock?


for background: Nov. 15, 2009

.
At 10 a.m. ET, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s Hydrometeorological Prediction Center in Camp Springs, Md. reported that the center of Ida’s remnants were now 90 miles south-southeast of Hatteras, North Carolina and 110 miles east-southeast of Morehead City, North Carolina. That puts the center near 34.0 North latitude and 74.7 west longitude.
The coastal low has moved in a southeasterly direction from its location yesterday, November 12, and will continue to track southeastward, away from the Carolina coast. The low’s circulation has continued to gain strength at sea and now has maximum sustained winds near 65 mph. The low’s minimum central pressure is 995 millibars.
Although the low is pulling away, and its rains are easing along the Mid-Atlantic U.S. coast today, it is leaving behind a great deal of flooding, particularly in eastern Virginia and northeast North Carolina. Flood warnings and advisories remain in effect for portions of the central Gulf coast, the southeastern U.S. and the Mid-Atlantic States. High wind, gale and storm warnings are also in effect along coastal regions of the Mid-Atlantic States.
Eastern Virginia and northeastern North Carolina reported extreme rainfall amounts as of 7 a.m. ET today, November 13. The following are towns in North Carolina and their rainfall in inches: Swansboro – 9.51; Sneads Ferry – 8.76; Newport – 8.45; James City; 7.77; Surf City – 7.55.
In coastal Virginia, the rainfall totals were the highest. Here are some towns and their rainfall in inches: Chesapeake – 11.92; Hampton – 11.86; Suffolk – 10.58; Langley Air Force Base – 10.58; Oceana – 10.29; Newport News – 9.76; Portsmouth – 8.66; Norfolk – 8.47
Rainfall was much less the farther inland. The Nation’s Capital reported 1.54 inches of rainfall at Reagan International Airport.



TRMM precipitation data for November nor'easter "Ida"
The Atlantic hurricane season is officially almost over, and it has been a quiet one, partly due to the influence of the moderate El Nińo conditions in the Pacific Ocean, which are known to suppress hurricane formation in the Atlantic. But one storm, Ida, was enough to make the season memorable. Ida was actually born in the Caribbean Sea near Nicaragua, became a Gulf of Mexico hurricane, then weakened to a tropical storm before making landfall on the Florida Panhandle — and then as an extratropical low pressure system moved over to the Atlantic coast and re-intensified into a vicious "nor'easter" that assaulted and battered the Mid-Atlantic coast, causing hundreds of millions of dollars of damage and massive coastal erosion.
http://disc.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/gesNews/images_of_Ida_noreaster

The remnants of Ida merged with a Nor'easter that developed off the coast of North Carolina, and the Ida-energized Nor'easter brought the highest storm surges on record to the Atlantic coast between Norfolk, Virginia, and Lewes, Delaware.

solarfry
01-13-2010, 07:18 PM
Wow! That boat started sinking in 2007 and has not reached bottom yet. Is it full of foam flotation and is waiting for the foam to soak up to sink?

Bly
01-13-2010, 07:20 PM
Same thing happened to my cousin. He borrowed mom's Pinto and when he brought it home with the entire front end smashed he told her it just folded in on itself, tugged to the left and stopped. But THERE WAS NOTHING that caused this to happen.
We took the cousin's word for it. Sometimes manufactured items just disentegrate because the wrong people worked on them! Manufactured Items do fail. Especially when the have a dismal failure history like bertram in the last decade and more. Maybe if you were a little more experienced at glass work you would see in the pictures a very resin starved stitched glass that seperated because of lack of rein and more glass surrounding the core in the hull sides. If bertram wants to core the hull sides then they better do it right or they are going to make it tough on most of the boat builders that go to the trouble to build a good boat. but then you should know all this being an editor of southern boating in the past? Or maybe elvis?

Rickiretardo
01-13-2010, 07:21 PM
Wow! That boat started sinking in 2007 and has not reached bottom yet. Is it full of foam flotation and is waiting for the foam to soak up to sink?

At last someone who is either in california or florida but with a real sense of humor. About time!

Rickiretardo
01-13-2010, 07:27 PM
Manufactured Items do fail. Especially when the have a dismal failure history like bertram in the last decade and more. Maybe if you were a little more experienced at glass work you would see in the pictures a very resin starved stitched glass that seperated because of lack of rein and more glass surrounding the core in the hull sides. If bertram wants to core the hull sides then they better do it right or they are going to make it tough on most of the boat builders that go to the trouble to build a good boat. but then you should know all this being an editor of southern boating in the past? Or maybe elvis?


Elvis, same birthday as my departed dad. He hated Elvis, blamed him for the end of Mancini and Percy Faith and Jazz. I preferred Jack Jones. I think that when you look at photographs of video that was taken weeks after a sinking and a week after a storm it is like looking at images of Titanic and pretending to understand why the paint peeled the way it did. Who really knows?

gerg
01-13-2010, 07:40 PM
And the pasta keeps hitting the wall, hoping something will stick.

That boat shouldn't have come apart like that. Not on the surface, not on the bottom. Not in a hurricane, not on a reef (although it wasn't found on a reef, but on a nice sandy bottom).

By any other name, these one post wonders are "Bertram I am"

Not in a box, not with a fox,
Not in a house, not with a mouse,
It shouldn't have sunk here or there
It shouldn't have sunk anywhere
I do not like delaminated foam,
I do not like it Bertam I am.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

http://www.lucylearns.com/images/dr-seuss-clipart-dr-seuss-clip-art-green-eggs-and-ham-picture-1.gif

Bly
01-13-2010, 07:41 PM
Elvis, same birthday as my departed dad. He hated Elvis, blamed him for the end of Mancini and Percy Faith and Jazz. I preferred Jack Jones. I think that when you look at photographs of video that was taken weeks after a sinking and a week after a storm it is like looking at images of Titanic and pretending to understand why the paint peeled the way it did. Who really knows? But then someone has to be bertrams cheer leader even if its a loosing team. Maybe thats wht your not an editor or what ever? Not very objective? Just a lot of denial. If you believe in bertram so much then why dont you under write all the insurance policies on there hulls because I am sure it must be a lot tougher to get one after two failures of the same model and then the 57 documented with the bulkhead failures?

rickyrybo
01-13-2010, 08:53 PM
Fascinating thread, I've been reading from an undisclosed location, utilizing an assumed name, even donning a disguise when I felt it appropriate, (or was just in the mood)...anyway, no shortage of conjecture regarding the big Berties demise, the only agreement here on THT that Mr. Camper is quite the little dictator.

Mine Now
01-13-2010, 08:55 PM
Are you elvis? If not then when did you land on this planet :grin:

captddis
01-13-2010, 09:05 PM
Fascinating thread, I've been reading from an undisclosed location, utilizing an assumed name, even donning a disguise when I felt it appropriate, (or was just in the mood)...anyway, no shortage of conjecture regarding the big Berties demise, the only agreement here on THT that Mr. Camper is quite the little dictator.


They are the biggest bunch of whiners ever. I have never seen such self absorbed people. If any one of them ever had any fun they would fall over dead!

rickyrybo
01-13-2010, 10:41 PM
No, gladly I am not Elvis, despite the good natured (and well intentioned) critique by my beloved wife, regarding my morning vocalizations; I'm loud but not particularly proud during my ministrations, His (Elvis, not Jesus) top ten belted out as part of my daily enthusiastic embrace of life.
I do aspire, however, to remake Earth in the image of my home planet, Planet Nerf. Details to follow.
I will begin by stating that I was the three billionth, five hundredth and first person (give or take a few million) to be banished from Yacht Forums...FOREVER. This despite kind words to a certain broker who writes for that site, who was ridiculed and scorned for her perceived self promoting transgressions, on this site. Considering that Earths' population is approximately 7 billion, I have tipped the balance in our favor...more than half the world...that is us, my fellow scorned opportunistic capitalists, so my unhappy camper banishment decree reads, are available to reconfigure an alternate universe that is free of control freaks that would be more appropriately named "Wesley Mooch."
Any fellow THT members headed to the New York Boat Show, on the 23rd?

bjm9818
01-13-2010, 11:08 PM
rickyrybo guess you haven't given up yet, and are still looking for pictures of Bull.

ocean 38
01-14-2010, 03:21 AM
i agree with what you say about the boat being damaged from the swells. on new years weekend down here in Trinidad and Tobago they had a ground swell maybe 10 -15ft roll through no tropical storm or anything, and one of the local dive masters was conducting a dive and he said at 80 ft down they were still getting pushed around by the surge to such an extent that they had to cancel the dive. so definitely at 80 ft the surge would have had an effect on that wreck.

greg

DonQ
01-14-2010, 08:00 AM
Something is fishy!

First things first. The photos on Yacht Forum of the 63 Bertram sunk off Carolina were not taken Nov. 11, a few days after the Absolutely 63 Bertram yachtfish went down. They were taken long after Hurricane Ida WOW. REMNANTS of Ida are now a Hurricane? turned Bill Perry Reef into a blender. http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/data/stdmet/Nov/41013.txt Note that this is historical data from Frying Pan Shoals. Close to Bill Perry Reef. The highest waves noted in November were 3.02 meters on the 13th. Hardly unusual stuff for FPS. On the day of the incident, they were less than 2 meters.


I am new to this forum and I share a historic and personal appreciation for Bertram yachts. I worked on one. You may know me from my days as editor at Florida Shipper or from The Boating News or a dozen other articles about boats and fishing over the past 30 years. You may remember I was a judge for the NMMA Innovation Awards for years along with Dean Clarke and Roger Marshall and Bill Pike among others. A friend got me interested in the sinking of Absolutely, the Bertram 63 off of Myrtle Beach at Bill Perry Reef on Nov.6. The Boating News was based in Charleston and I know a little bit about those waters just north and south of Frying Pan Shoals. The reason the Carolina boat beams are designed as they are is to repel the destructive, wet and pounding short chop that builds for over 30 miles across those shallows.
Bill Perry Reef is so shallow even at 25 miles off shore, it is a novice dive site, maybe 50 feet deep. In there are objects a hundred feet long and rather tall, shrimp boats and freighters and a fleet of subway cars.-- all the photos and words are at South East Shipping News -- google it- Anyway they toss these large objects on the bottom and let them drift where they may. I figured at first that Absolutely pounded through that mess, maybe hit something along the way and finally, slung the anchor over the side while the yachtbroker/captain/cassanova impressed his squeeze. This is rich. Now the captain hits something and stops to screw his girl. I fish these waters all the time and yes I have dived this site. No way at all that there is a possibility that any reef material was hit by this boat.
It takes a vast amount of care to operate a 63 Bertram at speed. It is very large and very fast. and few people have traveled at 35 knots on a yacht that big. But the flybridge is laid out like a living room and the helm is designed for socializing forward and watching the baits behind. You can’t see the bow unless you stand up and pay attention. He didn’t know where he was because, a diligent captain would not be powering through a novice dive site at that speed under any circumstances, unless he was sinking already or had no idea where he really was. The reef is not too far from his rhumb line course from Bald Head or Southport (Cape Fear) and there is NO problem going close to it. If there are boats close to it, maybe there are divers and you steer clear. Otherwise, if you avoid the bouy, there is no problem going close to this site. And this boat did not sink by hitting this bouy either. The bouy would have sustained considerable damage.

So he says he stuck the bow in a wave and the yacht yanked to the port and foredeck ripped back and the boat sank. He does not know why. Well if the anchor flew out and caught something or was bounced out by impact with that mystery buoy, then the pictures they have on Yacht Forum make it look like it was clothes-lined and sliced clean along the joint where the hull and bow cap fit together with a aluminum brace and screws.

What really matters to you bloggers is that the web site Yacht Forum.com for some reason said their "exclusive" photos of the submerged and badly damaged yacht were taken Nov. 11, within days of the Nov. 6 collision and sinking and before a major storm had the chance to pummel it into debris. In fact the hull was not located by SeaTow and photographers until Nov. 24 and no pictures were taken until Nov.29. In the mean time local scavengers diving the shallow wreck could have stripped the vessel or drug it around with grappling hooks to turn it over and ease access. After they left, extra-tropical storm IDA had her way with the wreck for 6 days tumbling through shallows amid the tons of other artificial reef debris.
The SC and NC natural resources people allow artificial reef builders to stack train cars, ships, and other debris in 40 feet of water without securing it. At Bill Perry only 2 of the 8 ships dumped on that site remain. No one knows how far all this stuff has tumbled and what kind of risk is poses.

Meanwhile, someone has maliciously attacked Bertram and its Italian owners as if they must build yachts strong enough to withstand the inadequate seamanship of a distracted captain and then must be strong enough for their sunken remains to withstand the weeks-long beating of a fierce storm. What a crock?


for background: Nov. 15, 2009

.
At 10 a.m. ET, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s Hydrometeorological Prediction Center in Camp Springs, Md. reported that the center of Ida’s remnants were now 90 miles south-southeast of Hatteras, North Carolina and 110 miles east-southeast of Morehead City, North Carolina. That puts the center near 34.0 North latitude and 74.7 west longitude. That's 300 miles from Bill Perry and moving away. It got stronger as it moved out to sea and did cause damage in the Mid Atlantic as you state below. News Flash! "eastern Virginia and northeast NC" don't relate to the issue at hand.
The coastal low has moved in a southeasterly direction from its location yesterday, November 12, and will continue to track southeastward, away from the Carolina coast. The low’s circulation has continued to gain strength at sea and now has maximum sustained winds near 65 mph. The low’s minimum central pressure is 995 millibars.
Although the low is pulling away, and its rains are easing along the Mid-Atlantic U.S. coast today, it is leaving behind a great deal of flooding, particularly in eastern Virginia and northeast North Carolina. Flood warnings and advisories remain in effect for portions of the central Gulf coast, the southeastern U.S. and the Mid-Atlantic States. High wind, gale and storm warnings are also in effect along coastal regions of the Mid-Atlantic States.
Eastern Virginia and northeastern North Carolina reported extreme rainfall amounts as of 7 a.m. ET today, November 13. The following are towns in North Carolina and their rainfall in inches: Swansboro – 9.51; Sneads Ferry – 8.76; Newport – 8.45; James City; 7.77; Surf City – 7.55.
In coastal Virginia, the rainfall totals were the highest. Here are some towns and their rainfall in inches: Chesapeake – 11.92; Hampton – 11.86; Suffolk – 10.58; Langley Air Force Base – 10.58; Oceana – 10.29; Newport News – 9.76; Portsmouth – 8.66; Norfolk – 8.47
Rainfall was much less the farther inland. The Nation’s Capital reported 1.54 inches of rainfall at Reagan International Airport.



TRMM precipitation data for November nor'easter "Ida"
The Atlantic hurricane season is officially almost over, and it has been a quiet one, partly due to the influence of the moderate El Nińo conditions in the Pacific Ocean, which are known to suppress hurricane formation in the Atlantic. But one storm, Ida, was enough to make the season memorable. Ida was actually born in the Caribbean Sea near Nicaragua, became a Gulf of Mexico hurricane, then weakened to a tropical storm before making landfall on the Florida Panhandle — and then as an extratropical low pressure system moved over to the Atlantic coast and re-intensified into a vicious "nor'easter" that assaulted and battered the Mid-Atlantic coast, causing hundreds of millions of dollars of damage and massive coastal erosion.
http://disc.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/gesNews/images_of_Ida_noreaster

The remnants of Ida merged with a Nor'easter that developed off the coast of North Carolina, and the Ida-energized Nor'easter brought the highest storm surges on record to the Atlantic coast between Norfolk, Virginia, and Lewes, Delaware. between Norfolk and Lewes.

You obviously have some ax to grind here. I'm not sure what caused this boat to sink, but it had NOTHING to do with reef material. Further, how is it possible that I, along with countless others, are able to fish these reefs using the same numbers over and over if everything is being tossed around willy-nilly?

There are some here and at YF that have agendas both for and against Bertram, for whatever reason. Your post, to me, takes a little knowledge and twists it around too much to be comfortable. Sorry, that is the way I see it.

Rickiretardo
01-14-2010, 11:13 AM
If I reply in red does that make me smarter or stronger? I have the reports, that you can get too from Frying Pan Shoal light all that month. And I have some neat NOAA images of the storm as it moved up the coast. But I new at this -- so new I don't know what color to reply in. I will put the images up on my blog under Eyerdam Opinion, which is where I do my speculating. The rest of it is news about ships and, this week, Haiti's port situation and such. I think I am allowed to put the blog address in here. Well I better wait for instructions before I do. Either let me know if I can post my blog link or let me know how to insert images on this excellent discussion board, and I will be glad to respond with facts. Oh, and how do I make the letters another color? That seems important.
Also, I all I am suggesting is that storms will move things around pretty violently, especially in water that is that shallow for those distances. I mean it only get shallower as you head west. So you get a really nasty short chop. I have a list of eight vessels that were sunk at Bill Perry Reef over the years and then the subway cars recently. Check the dive videos, only two vessels, plus Absolutely are in the area and the only reason Absolutely is still around is that Sea Tow anchored her in place. Dern where are my red words. I feel like shouting!!

Rickiretardo
01-14-2010, 11:36 AM
Coool this is the amazingly long URL to get to the buoy at Frying Pan Shoals. There using multi colored ink they can tell you what the weather was including wave heights and wind on any day in recent history. U decided.

[url]http://images.google.com

Rickiretardo
01-14-2010, 12:31 PM
I hung the long url to connect to the Frying Pan Reef bouy data. It worked briefly then was abridged, as they say. So now I know not to do that. Sorry.

Wolakrab
01-14-2010, 12:50 PM
Ricki,
I think the red font was to make his post easier to read...not to add emphasis on what he wrote.
Don knows of what he speaks about. What would be the point of marking a reef with a buoy or providing coordinates if it moves as much as you say it does? I've been fishing reefs off SC for over 20 years, and I haven't seen them move in this manner. In that time, we have had many storms greater than the one you mention.
There's alot of hearsay and innuendo to be found on this thread...both pro-and anti-Bertram. The only ones who really know what happened were on the boat when it sank, and they have not spoken up. I doubt seriously they ever will.

Raybo Marine NY
01-14-2010, 01:09 PM
I dont think any reasonable person thought ALL that damage happened from the initial incident.

so was it the buoy, a subway car, the reef?

gerg
01-14-2010, 01:31 PM
A floating subway car and a wandering reef?

Mine Now
01-14-2010, 02:07 PM
I dont think any reasonable person thought ALL that damage happened from the initial incident.

so was it the buoy, a subway car, the reef?

Never even considered it. The only damage that is important is the initial damage that caused the vessel to sink. Anything else is irrelevant except to show an overal build quality with this particular vessel.

Island-Marine
01-14-2010, 02:23 PM
So after weeks of arguments, and 28 pages of opinions, why is it so hard to believe that the boat stuffed a wave, and came apart? happens all the time to race boats.
i know its traveling much slower, but how much different is the impact into a wave at half the speed, but 10 times the weight? plus the entry on a race boat being much finer . add to this the possibillity that there may have been a problem with the bond of the core, or how the boat was built, and this doesnt seem possible.? As far as the tramsom damage, what happens to your wake when you come to an instant stop from 30 + knots?
lets face it nothing is built like the old days. coring is to save weight, Lighter means faster with less HP, which means less fuel usage, doesnt always mean better though.
and this pic shows what could have been happening on the trip south. How hard would it be for this boat to come apart, if pushed too hard with the outter skin peeling off,?,,, might have worked like a gigantic water brake. the outer skin is most of the strenghth, and its obviously not attached . Nobody wants to admit there was a problem with this boat, not Bertram any way,, or the people that own one, but common sense says otherwise. :banghead:

prowlersfish
01-19-2010, 04:32 AM
So after weeks of arguments, and 28 pages of opinions, why is it so hard to believe that the boat stuffed a wave, and came apart? happens all the time to race boats.
i know its traveling much slower, but how much different is the impact into a wave at half the speed, but 10 times the weight? plus the entry on a race boat being much finer . add to this the possibillity that there may have been a problem with the bond of the core, or how the boat was built, and this doesnt seem possible.? As far as the tramsom damage, what happens to your wake when you come to an instant stop from 30 + knots?
lets face it nothing is built like the old days. coring is to save weight, Lighter means faster with less HP, which means less fuel usage, doesnt always mean better though.
and this pic shows what could have been happening on the trip south. How hard would it be for this boat to come apart, if pushed too hard with the outter skin peeling off,?,,, might have worked like a gigantic water brake. the outer skin is most of the strenghth, and its obviously not attached . Nobody wants to admit there was a problem with this boat, not Bertram any way,, or the people that own one, but common sense says otherwise. :banghead:


If this was happening and then hit the bouy or a wave just right it would make sence on why the boat came apart

Rickiretardo
01-20-2010, 07:46 AM
Wolakrab:

Sorry about the red type confusion and slow response. Got tied up helping Haitian rebuild group build a website and covering chaos of shipping issues to Haiti. What a sad thing.

rickyrybo
01-20-2010, 07:31 PM
rickyrybo guess you haven't given up yet, and are still looking for pictures of Bull.

Curious as to the purpose of your post. Why would I be looking for pictures of BULL? I have unfettered access to all of the images taken of her during the Rybovich Rendezvous.
If you have a point, please make it.
Rick.

rickyrybo
01-29-2010, 08:02 PM
Discussion closed, at least on Yacht Forums. Controlling personality aside, anyone else curious as to why?

seabob4
01-29-2010, 08:10 PM
Discussion closed, at least on Yacht Forums. Controlling personality aside, anyone else curious as to why?

Damn boat sunk. End of story...;)

rickyrybo
01-29-2010, 08:28 PM
Thanks. I guess that about wraps it up. Your logic sure to be a revelation worthy of sharing to the aviation community. I'll send your synopsis to the editors at Flying Magazine, who'll forward it to the NTSB. Excellent! Why waste time analyzing what happened? The plane crashedI End of story! Good 'un!
Rick.

bruno35
01-29-2010, 08:34 PM
Did anyone raise this boat ?

seabob4
01-29-2010, 08:51 PM
Thanks. I guess that about wraps it up. Your logic sure to be a revelation worthy of sharing to the aviation community. I'll send your synopsis to the editors at Flying Magazine, who'll forward it to the NTSB. Excellent! Why waste time analyzing what happened? The plane crashedI End of story! Good 'un!
Rick.

Belabor it all you want. That's the deal...;?

Next?

rickyrybo
01-29-2010, 09:01 PM
Hi Bob. Belabor it? Next? If you are tired or bored regarding why a 63 three foot, state of the art Bertram SF apparently foundered in calm seas, video and stills portraying catastrophic damage, I suggest you might wish to post to a different thread. Jeez! You're kidding right?
Rick.

seabob4
01-29-2010, 09:40 PM
Hi Bob. Belabor it? Next? If you are tired or bored regarding why a 63 three foot, state of the art Bertram SF apparently foundered in calm seas, video and stills portraying catastrophic damage, I suggest you might wish to post to a different thread. Jeez! You're kidding right?
Rick.

Rick,
First, let's get something straight. For the owners and victims of the mishap, I feel for them. No loss of life was incurred, thank mother nature, so there are no fatalities to have to "explain". That being said, the owner/operator of that vessel obviously had the means to allow safe passage wherever the vessel traveled, and obviously that was not done, as evidenced by it's demise. With a competent crew on board, whether it be the owner or a hired Captain and mate, a well a the electronics fitted to her, she should have had the capabilities to navigate, safely, just about anywhere within 200 miles of shore.

To compare her demise to a aircraft crash is quite the stretch...and I mean QUITE the stretch. I could go on for pages as to the differences between an aircraft accident and a boat accident. Needless to say, I would rather have one at sea than in the air. Hence, the requirements for aircraft, as mandated by the FFA and the NTSB are somewhat more stringent than those imposed by ABYC, NMMA, or CG. Not to mention Bertram, along with all other builders in the states that build "recreational" vessels, do not have stringent inspections of building processes, nor do they have periodic inspections of "sample" boats. It's their word that they are meeting the "requirements" of the various bodies, none of which are governmental in nature (except the CG), that they say they adhere to.

None of the aforementioned "bodies" have any requirements about hull-to-deck joint bonding or joining, about lay-up thicknesses and materials in the hull, coring in the hullsides, etc., etc., etc. So what exactly did Bertram do wrong that caused this failure, if indeed it was Bertrams fault?

An aside is that if indeed you build a vessel to be certified by Lloyds of London, then there will be plans drawn up for that vessel, there will be inspections, there will be process certifications, there will be testing to make sure construction specifications are met, etc. Did Bertram want the 63 to meets Lloyd's specs, and if they did, have we heard that? Not that I've seen.

So, therefore, as I stated before, the damn boat sunk, end of story. The owner's insurance paid for it, it's between him and Bertram, and so far, from the gist of this thread, Bertram hasn't "stepped up"....

JMHO;cool;

rickyrybo
01-29-2010, 10:15 PM
Hi Bob. My response to you is not easy one, as I feel I am responding to some sort of refutation regarding assumptions or assertions that I never made.
This 63 foot Bertram suffered catastrophic damage, that resulted in her lying on the bottom in some 80 feet of water. All of us are relieved that no one was injured or killed, nonetheless, the cause of her sinking is tantamount to her builder, as well as to the boating community at large.
Rick.

seabob4
01-29-2010, 10:22 PM
Hi Bob. My response to you is not easy one, as I feel I am responding to some sort of refutation regarding assumptions or assertions that I never made.
This 63 foot Bertram suffered catastrophic damage, that resulted in her lying on the bottom in some 80 feet of water. All of us are relieved that no one was injured or killed, nonetheless, the cause of her sinking is tantamount to her builder, as well as to the boating community at large.
Rick.

Rick,
If I were Bertram, I feel it would be in my best interest to settle this. There may be "issues" that you and I are not privy to that precludes Bertram from commenting on the matter other than what they have said so far.

There are millions of recreational vessels sunk every year, whether they be 14' jon boats or 1000' cargo ships. What makes this one so special?

Bob

rat_catcher
01-29-2010, 10:22 PM
.........nonetheless, the cause of her sinking is tantamount to her builder, as well as to the boating community at large.
I agree. As a casual observer I would still like to know if they have figured out why she sank. Not sure we will ever hear an answer but doesn't mean people aren't interested.

rat_catcher
01-29-2010, 10:24 PM
The owner's insurance paid for it............
Actually somewhere back in the last 500 or so posts on this topic, I think it was mentioned that they forgot to take out insurance prior to departure.

rickyrybo
01-29-2010, 10:34 PM
Hi Bob. A jon boat sinking is significant to its' owner, hopefully a soggy survivor, but a multimillion dollar sportfisherman sunk in clear weather and calm conditions is of curiousity and concern to all, particularly her constructor, as well as the boat building community at large.
An insurance settlement. For what?
Rick.

seabob4
01-29-2010, 10:35 PM
I agree. As a casual observer I would still like to know if they have figured out why she sank. Not sure we will ever hear an answer but doesn't mean people aren't interested.

So, let's look at the situation. Boat is on the ocean floor. Needs to be salvaged. Boat owner pays? Bertram pays? Is it interfering with navigation (CG)? Is it interfering with ocean data collection/notice to mariners (NOAA)? So, assuming "No", on both counts, it's between the owner (and his insurance company) and Bertram. The salvage crew will be hired by one or the other. The salvage crew, whether it be the owner's or Bertram's, will be bound by contract to report their findings to the employer. We are not privy to that information, nor are we privy to the findings once it make's its way back to the Bertram plant, which I assume it will.

Therefore, it is up to the owner or Bertram to divulge what they "think" went wrong, based on thorough analysis.

Until that analysis is made public, or is "leaked", time to move on...:thumbsup:

Bob C

seabob4
01-29-2010, 10:40 PM
Actually somewhere back in the last 500 or so posts on this topic, I think it was mentioned that they forgot to take out insurance prior to departure.

I haven't followed this thread from beginning 'til end, just been kind of interested...

But if that's the case, ...............no, I'll shut my mouth....:nono:

rickyrybo
01-29-2010, 10:54 PM
Bob, the ultimate point here is not where she lies or whom pays whom, but what actually happened. If it was an "at sea event," so be it. But if it was a failure of materials or procedures, lessons learned could save lives.
Bob, this is an important story and the truth will come out.
Rick.

rat_catcher
01-29-2010, 10:58 PM
I haven't followed this thread from beginning 'til end, just been kind of interested...

But if that's the case, ...............no, I'll shut my mouth....:nono:

Try post #136.

seabob4
01-29-2010, 10:59 PM
Bob, the ultimate point here is not where she lies or whom pays whom, but what actually happened. If it was an "at sea event," so be it. But if it was a failure of materials or procedures, lessons learned could save lives.

That is an excellent point...

Bob, this is an important story and the truth will come out.

We shall see...

Buenos suerte, mi amigo...peace...:thumbsup:

seabob4
01-29-2010, 11:02 PM
Try post #136.

Rat, I just checked in on the thread, as it has gone on for 29 pages.

Lord, if they "forgot" to get insurance...

Like I said, I'll just shut my mouth......

rat_catcher
01-29-2010, 11:04 PM
Lord, if they "forgot" to get insurance...

Exactly......and IMHO that is why this thing is such a cluster.....everybody is blaming everybody else as they try not to end up being the one holding the can.

seabob4
01-29-2010, 11:13 PM
Exactly......and IMHO that is why this thing is such a cluster.....everybody is blaming everybody else as they try not to end up being the one holding the can.

When all is said and done, I'm sure it will pop up here on THT.

Until then, I'm oughta here, time to hit the hay!

Rick, Rat, good talking with you guys. We'll see what comes up, literally and figuratively....

Bob C

rat_catcher
01-29-2010, 11:25 PM
When all is said and done, I'm sure it will pop up here on THT.
I hope so. Have a good one.

RracnRod
01-30-2010, 05:29 AM
would this boat even survive a salvage being brought to the top? Looks to me like the thing would just crumble apart. I dont know anything about salvaging a boat so I dont know what stress would be put on the boat.

Bly
01-30-2010, 07:49 AM
Posted over at Yacht forums - it's what most of us thought all along - BTW - for the naysayers - talk to the hired captains that have run these things - they love em & can say enough about em -


"Dear Bertram Employees, Dealers, and Friends,

I am writing to provide some additional information on the unfortunate November 6th sinking of a Bertram 63 off the coast of South Carolina.

As I indicated earlier, I am committed to providing complete and up-to-date information as the investigation progresses and details emerge. During this time, I am devoting my full attention to this matter.

The key points I want to convey about the incident are:


•Most importantly, the captain and his friend/passenger were safely taken off the boat without injury.
•While tropical storm force currents initially complicated the search, the sunken boat was finally located recently in approximately 80 feet of water a short distance from the rescue point.
•The initial data we received --- from the boat’s captain, from eye-witnesses who arrived on the scene to aid in the rescue, and from analysis of the debris in the water --- clearly indicated that the boat hit something in the water.
•All new information collected since the event, further supports an apparent collision with something in the water.
•There is substantial evidence that the Bill Perry Reef Buoy at the location of the incident was recently struck with significant force.
•An examination of the boat by divers at its resting point reveal that the starboard rudder shaft is bent aft and the starboard propeller exhibits a substantial ding consistent with that propeller hitting something in the water.
•The extensive damage to the bow portion of the craft is also consistent with an impact of significant force that could have breached the hull and created an unrecoverable scenario.

It is important to note that these are only preliminary findings based on a first dive of the craft. Other details may be uncovered as investigators begin the intensive work of piecing back together the events that led to the sinking of this vessel.

We feel that it is important to keep you up to date on the findings and will continue to update you on the facts surrounding this accident as they come available.

Please feel free share this information with all parties you feel may benefit from the information.

And if you have any questions or comments on this matter, please contact me at +1 305 633 - 8011.

Regards,

Michael W. Myers
President
Bertram Yacht Inc.
(305) 633 - 8011"
He tried to put the blame on the captain hitting that little plastic buoy! Until the buoy pictures and the video were released???????? Now why would anyone trust the words of bertram? Or toyota

Raybo Marine NY
01-30-2010, 11:04 AM
that boat is not being raised, I would guess by now its is just a mere shell, I bet you could practically pick the motors right out of it.
Its probably all but destroyed by now from being dragged along the bottom.

And who would pay for that anyhow?


Last I read on YF was that it has moved to the point they have not located it again, its lost.

seabob4
01-30-2010, 11:15 AM
that boat is not being raised, I would guess by now its is just a mere shell, I bet you could practically pick the motors right out of it.
Its probably all but destroyed by now from being dragged along the bottom.

And who would pay for that anyhow?


Last I read on YF was that it has moved to the point they have not located it again, its lost.

And so we move on...

Raybo Marine NY
01-30-2010, 02:15 PM
the video and pictures of the boat are from November, can you imagine how much more that boat has been destroyed since then?

KeyPineSavage
01-30-2010, 06:35 PM
Thanks. I guess that about wraps it up. Your logic sure to be a revelation worthy of sharing to the aviation community. I'll send your synopsis to the editors at Flying Magazine, who'll forward it to the NTSB. Excellent! Why waste time analyzing what happened? The plane crashedI End of story! Good 'un!
Rick.

ricky

Neither Flying, the AOPA magazine and CERTAINLY NOT the NTSB throw open their pages where every idiot with an opinion and nothing else can vent, troll, rant, surmise, speculate, etc. endllessly. Internet forums are different. You talk about "analyzing." The aviation groups you mention DO in fact analyze. They analyze facts, either known or reconstructed on evidentiary bases. These forums are far different.

seabob4
01-30-2010, 08:45 PM
ricky

Neither Flying, the AOPA magazine and CERTAINLY NOT the NTSB throw open their pages where every idiot with an opinion and nothing else can vent, troll, rant, surmise, speculate, etc. endllessly. Internet forums are different. You talk about "analyzing." The aviation groups you mention DO in fact analyze. They analyze facts, either known or reconstructed on evidentiary bases. These forums are far different.

Then we are...damn, how do you spell "outta"?...here..

Time for beers and pretzels!:thumbsup:

Actually, some chips and homemade salsa...:thumbsup::thumbsup:

WHOAAA!!! 1st post on page 30!!!!! WaHoooooo!!!!!!

Damn, I gotta get a life...

KeyPineSavage
01-30-2010, 08:58 PM
Damn, I gotta get a life...

C'mon, you know you love this one. ;cool;

lbud
01-30-2010, 09:12 PM
The Bucking Foat sunk!!! BFD

seabob4
01-30-2010, 09:22 PM
The Bucking Foat sunk!!! BFD

You are in BIG trouble now....

Yeah Ted, you should see my electrical explanation to a guy on iBoats that I was bitchin' about last night...can't get it out of my system...;cool;

BUT I'LL GET OVER IT!:thumbsup:

rickyrybo
02-01-2010, 06:49 PM
Hi Bill. You are correct regarding the NTSB and various organizations and magazines, AOPA and Flying respectably, not opening their investigations to public conjecture. This does not, however, dismiss the validity of such debate, regardless of whether a certain percentage of the participants are trolls, idiots, Martians or miscreants.
Throughout the United States short history, innovation and genius have almost always come from individuals outside the mainstream; to use the aviation example again, Burt Rutan is arguably without peer, decades of "outside the box" thinking.
Bill, Bob, Rat there are many on this site who can view the remains of that Bertie and draw conclusions that are as "expert" as any of the surveyors, insurance adjusters, investigators, etc.
Yes, the boat sank. I happen to be interested in the why and how and look forward to discussing the possible reasons with other like minded individuals.
Rick.

seabob4
02-01-2010, 07:16 PM
Hi Bill. You are correct regarding the NTSB and various organizations and magazines, AOPA and Flying respectably, not opening their investigations to public conjecture. This does not, however, dismiss the validity of such debate, regardless of whether a certain percentage of the participants are trolls, idiots, Martians or miscreants.
Throughout the United States short history, innovation and genius have almost always come from individuals outside the mainstream; to use the aviation example again, Burt Rutan is arguably without peer, decades of "outside the box" thinking.
Bill, Bob, Rat there are many on this site who can view the remains of that Bertie and draw conclusions that are as "expert" as any of the surveyors, insurance adjusters, investigators, etc.
Yes, the boat sank. I happen to be interested in the why and how and look forward to discussing the possible reasons with other like minded individuals.
Rick.

Cool...:thumbsup:

sunchaser v
02-01-2010, 09:06 PM
Welcome to THT Rickb

Bugbuster
02-02-2010, 06:15 AM
IMO a big bert should be able to run over any small vessel/object at will. :grin:

denny-o
02-02-2010, 06:42 AM
IMO a big bert should be able to run over any small vessel/object at will.
************************************************** ************************************8

What he said... What's the point of having a multi million dollar go fast, if you can't run down the riff raff in their 14 foot jon boats, at will??????

"Get out of the way, you raff... I'm a big man, a somebody, not a six pak rat like you... I'm coming through! . . .. Wait, what's that? Oh sheet, he threw out a beer can in front of me, oh no, I'm gonna sink!"

denny-o

Bugbuster
02-02-2010, 06:44 AM
Yep, the next time a big bert gets near my spread I will choose a 16oz heaver to the bow and sink his azz. :grin:

KeyPineSavage
02-02-2010, 10:51 PM
Naahhh, just carry a stack of four or five of those orange plastic cones that the road boys use to mark lane closures, and deploy them over the side as needed.

nccoaster
02-03-2010, 07:04 AM
Did the Pacemaker in Caddyshack sink when he ran over the john boat? I think not!

rybovich18
02-03-2010, 07:44 AM
Did the Pacemaker in Caddyshack sink when he ran over the john boat? I think not!


Come on man, that was a Striker, not a Pacemaker.

jbg108
02-03-2010, 09:22 AM
Come on man, that was a Striker, not a Pacemaker.


Not even a scratch after it hit the Bell Bouy going 22 knots (60 seconds into the video). Aluminum only dents.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGD-tUsySPs

Bugbuster
02-03-2010, 10:23 AM
I guess they don't build em like they used too.

rat_catcher
02-03-2010, 02:16 PM
Not even a scratch after it hit the Bell Bouy going 22 knots (60 seconds into the video). Aluminum only dents.
That is a classic. I have seen it many years ago, but just watched it again and got a good laugh!

rickyrybo
02-03-2010, 07:10 PM
Amazing the bad taste and lack of compassion prevalent on this site. Are you all ignorant backwoods/ Fifth Avenue inbreds, insistent on wasting valuable resources when decades of research proved that even the venerable Bertram 31 was vulnerable to a well placed water balloon?
Rick.

PS The water breaking off the Strikers' fore foot is reversed (backwards!) in the jonboat scene.

seabob4
02-03-2010, 07:20 PM
Amazing the bad taste and lack of compassion prevalent on this site. Are you all ignorant backwoods/ Fifth Avenue inbreds, insistent on wasting valuable resources when decades of research proved that even the venerable Bertram 31 was vulnerable to a well placed water balloon?
Rick.

PS The water breaking off the Strikers' fore foot is reversed (backwards!) in the jonboat scene.

Rick,
Hate to say it, but lighten up!;)

rickyrybo
02-03-2010, 07:32 PM
Hi Bob. Read my post again. Of course a Bertam 31 can't be compromised by water balloons alone. Obviously words were a factor as well.
Rick.

rickyrybo
02-03-2010, 07:42 PM
Jeez, my bad. Funny stuff from the rest of you, my post, too abstract.
Keep finding sillier and sillier reasons (has falling Pollen yet been ruled out?!) as to why this boat foundered.
Rick.

seabob4
02-03-2010, 07:50 PM
Jeez, my bad. Funny stuff from the rest of you, my post, too abstract.
Keep finding sillier and sillier reasons (has falling Pollen yet been ruled out?!) as to why this boat foundered.
Rick.

Rick,
Did you ever think that both the owner and Bertram don't really want us to know? That maybe it would have been better that a mishap like this occur in a much less scrutinized venue, for both of them? ;)

Now look, I'm not planning this, but FIRST POST ON BOTH PAGE 30 AND PAGE 31!!!! TIME TO BUY LOTTO TICKETS!!!

Bugbuster
02-04-2010, 03:58 AM
If there had been insurance on the boat, it probably would have ended at page one.

I'm still loading up on 16oz heavers though. Hehe.

denny-o
02-04-2010, 07:42 AM
I noted in one post that the wreck has now disappeared? From 80 feet down? If so, that's some kind of undertow (or above tow)... :()

denny-o

sunchaser v
02-04-2010, 07:50 AM
What wreck? How do we know it really happened? No marks on buoy. No carcass. No pictures that are verifiable. No insurance claims for said/rumored sinking. Iffy USCG report. Just rumors. Elvis seen at purported site. Rod Serling writing script. Bert Lives!

Raybo Marine NY
02-04-2010, 07:55 AM
serial numbers from the genny and engines were verified.
The ocean floor is a vast place, im sure its quite hard to find the carcass of this boat that has been dragged around with the current since November.

Rickiretardo
02-04-2010, 10:38 AM
serial numbers from the genny and engines were verified.
The ocean floor is a vast place, im sure its quite hard to find the carcass of this boat that has been dragged around with the current since November.



If you look at the NOAA chart for Bill Perry Reef, the original site of the sinking, is about 39 feet deep over the sunken ships and subway cars. It doesn’t get 80 feet deep for 10 miles in that area, mostly 60 feet and shallower.

When I get a chance I like to warn about the risks of building artificial reefs from vessels and barges and subway cars and stuff like that. The experts agree that this stuff won’t stay were you put it because it offers a resistant side to the ocean currents and gets tossed all over the place when a storm churns the bottom. If you put it in 60 feet there is nothing to stop it from tumbling into 30 feet, or from turning or stacking so that a part of it could be sticking up when an unsuspecting yacht passes by. The Bert went down Nov. 6, just before Ida went through there. Photos taken Nov. 29 show it was already falling apart and wandering. A coupla other nor’easters have been through since.

The experts recommend putting sunken debris that is not specially designed for artificial reefs – like they do in Japan-- in deep water, deeper than 90 feet-- and even at that, they recommend that the ship or barge or subway car be anchored because they tend to wander. The Carolinas build artificial reefs, yachtsmen ought to know-- in 60 feet and sometimes in 30 feet of water. And they don’t secure them.

I got into this when the Key Largo part of the Florida Keys Artificial Reef Association got a permit to sink the Speigle Grove just east of the very healthy reef. I warned them when I was editor of The Boating News to anchor that ship so it could not tumble and crush the reef. They ignored me (even tho I am founder and first president of the FKARA with some knowledge of this stuff.) And sure enough in July 2005 a small storm blew this 510 foot long ship over and toward the reef.

Storm uprights Spiegel Grove!
July 2005 - Underwater turbulence generated by Hurricane Dennis has uprighted the 510-foot artificial reef known as the Spiegel Grove.

The Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary is working on an emergency closure of the site while it assesses the ship's stability and its general condition. Workers will be removing the mooring buoys temporarily, sanctuary spokeswoman Cheva Heck said.

The shifted position of the 510-foot ship comes as a surprise because the area experienced minimal tropical-storm force winds during the passage of Hurricane Dennis on Saturday.

On Monday, a boat from Key Largo dive shop Ocean Divers visited the former Navy ship, which was scuttled in 130 feet of water May 17, 2002. When divers arrived at the site six miles offshore, they saw that several mooring balls were missing.

Here are a few more:
During Hurricane Andrew all the steel ships off Dade County endured tremendous movement and/or damage. But Andrew came ashore as a small intense storm across lower Biscayne Bay. Meanwhile more than 80 miles north:
“at least one vessel was moved offsite, four were laid over on their sides, and wrecks in water as deep as 180 feet experienced hull damage.

The hulls of the steel freighters Mercedes (250 feet in length in 97 feet of water) and the Noula Express (220 feet in length in 90 feet of water) were both broken in three places. A light gauge metal yacht in 65 feet of water was reduced to rubble.

There was evidence that shipwreck reefs were literally bounced up and down against the bottom (Ken Banks, personal communication).”

The experts argue that shallow reefs for fishermen and divers often due more harm than good because the only good they do is to create a place for fishermen to lose their tackle. Nobody has studied using a fiberglass boat for an artificial reef because the steel ones don’t last very long, and the idea of a fiberglass boat as a reef is laughable among reef builders.

Hurricane Hugo (1989), like Hurricane Andrew, which had sustained winds exceeding 150 miles per hour, bounced a 450 foot long troop ship, sunk off South Carolina 700 feet laterally across the bottom.”
All of this and much more is available at this source:


GUIDELINES FOR MARINE ARTIFICIAL REEF MATERIALS
Second Edition
Compiled by the
Artificial Reef Subcommittees of the Atlantic and Gulf States Marine Fisheries Commissions
Ronald R. Lukens and Carrie Selberg
Project Coordinators
January 2004
This project was conducted in cooperation with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and funded by Federal Aid in Sport Fish Restoration Administrative Funds, FWS Grant Agreement Nos. GS96
Amendment 7, A-4-1 and A-5-1. Support was also provided through the Atlantic Coastal Fisheries Cooperative Management Act NA17FG2205 and NA03NMF4740078

Raybo Marine NY
02-04-2010, 11:33 AM
ok

eddy2419
02-04-2010, 08:04 PM
If you look at the NOAA chart for Bill Perry Reef, the original site of the sinking, is about 39 feet deep over the sunken ships and subway cars. It doesn’t get 80 feet deep for 10 miles in that area, mostly 60 feet and shallower.

When I get a chance I like to warn about the risks of building artificial reefs from vessels and barges and subway cars and stuff like that. The experts agree that this stuff won’t stay were you put it because it offers a resistant side to the ocean currents and gets tossed all over the place when a storm churns the bottom. If you put it in 60 feet there is nothing to stop it from tumbling into 30 feet, or from turning or stacking so that a part of it could be sticking up when an unsuspecting yacht passes by. The Bert went down Nov. 6, just before Ida went through there. Photos taken Nov. 29 show it was already falling apart and wandering. A coupla other nor’easters have been through since.

The experts recommend putting sunken debris that is not specially designed for artificial reefs – like they do in Japan-- in deep water, deeper than 90 feet-- and even at that, they recommend that the ship or barge or subway car be anchored because they tend to wander. The Carolinas build artificial reefs, yachtsmen ought to know-- in 60 feet and sometimes in 30 feet of water. And they don’t secure them.

I got into this when the Key Largo part of the Florida Keys Artificial Reef Association got a permit to sink the Speigle Grove just east of the very healthy reef. I warned them when I was editor of The Boating News to anchor that ship so it could not tumble and crush the reef. They ignored me (even tho I am founder and first president of the FKARA with some knowledge of this stuff.) And sure enough in July 2005 a small storm blew this 510 foot long ship over and toward the reef.

Storm uprights Spiegel Grove!
July 2005 - Underwater turbulence generated by Hurricane Dennis has uprighted the 510-foot artificial reef known as the Spiegel Grove.

The Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary is working on an emergency closure of the site while it assesses the ship's stability and its general condition. Workers will be removing the mooring buoys temporarily, sanctuary spokeswoman Cheva Heck said.

The shifted position of the 510-foot ship comes as a surprise because the area experienced minimal tropical-storm force winds during the passage of Hurricane Dennis on Saturday.

On Monday, a boat from Key Largo dive shop Ocean Divers visited the former Navy ship, which was scuttled in 130 feet of water May 17, 2002. When divers arrived at the site six miles offshore, they saw that several mooring balls were missing.

Here are a few more:
During Hurricane Andrew all the steel ships off Dade County endured tremendous movement and/or damage. But Andrew came ashore as a small intense storm across lower Biscayne Bay. Meanwhile more than 80 miles north:
“at least one vessel was moved offsite, four were laid over on their sides, and wrecks in water as deep as 180 feet experienced hull damage.

The hulls of the steel freighters Mercedes (250 feet in length in 97 feet of water) and the Noula Express (220 feet in length in 90 feet of water) were both broken in three places. A light gauge metal yacht in 65 feet of water was reduced to rubble.

There was evidence that shipwreck reefs were literally bounced up and down against the bottom (Ken Banks, personal communication).”

The experts argue that shallow reefs for fishermen and divers often due more harm than good because the only good they do is to create a place for fishermen to lose their tackle. Nobody has studied using a fiberglass boat for an artificial reef because the steel ones don’t last very long, and the idea of a fiberglass boat as a reef is laughable among reef builders.

Hurricane Hugo (1989), like Hurricane Andrew, which had sustained winds exceeding 150 miles per hour, bounced a 450 foot long troop ship, sunk off South Carolina 700 feet laterally across the bottom.”
All of this and much more is available at this source:


GUIDELINES FOR MARINE ARTIFICIAL REEF MATERIALS
Second Edition
Compiled by the
Artificial Reef Subcommittees of the Atlantic and Gulf States Marine Fisheries Commissions
Ronald R. Lukens and Carrie Selberg
Project Coordinators
January 2004
This project was conducted in cooperation with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and funded by Federal Aid in Sport Fish Restoration Administrative Funds, FWS Grant Agreement Nos. GS96
Amendment 7, A-4-1 and A-5-1. Support was also provided through the Atlantic Coastal Fisheries Cooperative Management Act NA17FG2205 and NA03NMF4740078

You said a lot with out saying anything. 10 posts? Sorry but but this is an unusual post.

PowerYacht
02-05-2010, 03:37 AM
I think that Rickiretardo is saying that seeing the pictures and video on YF means nothing because there is a long time period between the sinking and when these where taken. He is also saying that the area is also renowned for having tide changes below where they can destory a ship wreck build of metal in hours let alone close to a month and a fibreglass yacht, with two storms in between.
I was a sceptical when I read his posts here a few weeks ago, but seeing what happened with the wreckage anchored, what he is saying seems true.

Bugbuster
02-05-2010, 06:24 AM
I noted in one post that the wreck has now disappeared? From 80 feet down? If so, that's some kind of undertow (or above tow)... :()

denny-o

Somebody drug it to their favorite bottom spot. :grin:

Or they just simply swam down and blew up three party balloons and floated it to their favorite spot. Coring is light and strong you know. :grin:

Rickiretardo
02-05-2010, 08:05 AM
I think that Rickiretardo is saying that seeing the pictures and video on YF means nothing because there is a long time period between the sinking and when these where taken. He is also saying that the area is also renowned for having tide changes below where they can destory a ship wreck build of metal in hours let alone close to a month and a fibreglass yacht, with two storms in between.
I was a sceptical when I read his posts here a few weeks ago, but seeing what happened with the wreckage anchored, what he is saying seems true.


Thanks PowerYacht. That's a fair assessment.

My message is that material that is not designed for the purpose of reef construction doesn't last in shallow, stormy water. So build those high profile artificial reefs in deeper water and secure them so they don't wander and become hazards to navigation or destructive to living coral and grasses.

The Bert was just a convenient and highly publicized example of the power of mother ocean, complete with photos. The next batch ought to be interesting.

babyshark
02-12-2010, 04:08 PM
if it sits in salt to long it will be of no use to anyone wont the ss start to corrode after awhile

ladyjane
02-12-2010, 04:24 PM
there was something on austrailan TV about 8 months about a oil tanker and the guy from the goverment said that the front fell off, can not find the link but has been posted here before. Maybe the front just fell off!

ScarabChris
02-12-2010, 04:30 PM
Can someone give me a brief update here? Last time I checked in here I think it was on page 6. Did they ever figure out the actual cause of the sinking?

ladyjane
02-12-2010, 04:52 PM
well did the front fall off?

bamaboy473
02-12-2010, 05:10 PM
...well, whatever happened, my vote for one of the best handles is for....

rickyretardo!! That cracks me up; especially for a guy with serious knowledge! :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

ladyjane
02-12-2010, 05:18 PM
DO not forget the front It might have just hit a wave and fell off!

KeyPineSavage
02-12-2010, 05:43 PM
Can someone give me a brief update here? Last time I checked in here I think it was on page 6. Did they ever figure out the actual cause of the sinking?

Chris

From somebody who has read it all, "no." (Or if anybody did, they aren't talking.) :grin:

bluechipfish
02-13-2010, 07:35 AM
Interview with a Bertram rep. This should clarify some things for us.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcU4t6zRAKg

Bly
02-13-2010, 07:43 AM
Interview with a Bertram rep. This should clarify some things for us.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcU4t6zRAKg

I think this thread needs to die with the ferretti bertam reputation. Especially when on around page 3 or so bertram tried to put the full blame on the captain for being anywhere near that little plastic buoy?

Rickiretardo
02-13-2010, 08:22 AM
Its a name my loving wife of 23 years gave me. When she's mad she calls me Rickyratardo. Must be the Miami vibes. And her name isn't even Lucy.

Rickiretardo
02-14-2010, 12:09 PM
FYI


US beats Swiss cat for America's Cup



Ernesto Bertarelli, a foreigner was involved. Rumor has it his cat lost because he might have used parts built by Ferretti.

rat_catcher
02-14-2010, 12:21 PM
US contraption beats Swiss cat for America's Cup
And this has to do with a sunk Bertram, how????

Bly
02-14-2010, 12:33 PM
And this has to do with a sunk Bertram, how????
After they threw him off the Yacht Forumn site for the same crap. He is a very special legend in his own mind? Rat Catcher dont ever bring up the 63 bertram that never even hit a light weight plastic buoy and broke a part in minutes fom a normal sea.at a normal cruise as stated by the only testifying eye witness. The captain and mate to the coast guard the next day after the accident. Or the other 63 that had half the side of the boat flapping in the waves?????Dont ever bring it up again please. or ricky retardo will not be doing his job?

rat_catcher
02-14-2010, 12:35 PM
Dont ever bring it up again please. or ricky retardo will not be doing his job?

Okey dokey....got it! :thumbsup:

Rickiretardo
02-14-2010, 01:14 PM
Sorry never gang blogged before. Not sure I have the skill set. Or the inate pettiness.

Is there an America's cup thread here? I looked for it after I got word of the US victory and posted it on my blog. I honestly forgot this is only for Bertram post mortems. I'll also take back the avricardo recipe. What was I thinking?

rat_catcher
02-14-2010, 01:18 PM
Is there an America's cup thread here? I looked for it after I got word of the US victory and posted it on my blog. I honestly forgot this is only for Bertram post mortems. I'll also take back the avricardo recipe. What was I thinking?

You could always start a new thread about the America's Cup.

Rickiretardo
02-14-2010, 01:28 PM
Just don't know how to start a new thread in these honored halls. I started one on the risks of artificial reefs at another blog. That worked out and was easy.

The other thing I don't know, yet, is what to do when people I don't know who don't know me make the kinda allegations that I am certain they wouldn't make to my face, if they actually knew me, or met me and remain standing. Safety in numbers I guess.

seabob4
02-14-2010, 01:32 PM
Just don't know how to start a new thread in these honored halls. I started one on the risks of artificial reefs at another blog. That worked out and was easy.

The other thing I don't know, yet, is what to do when people I don't know who don't know me make the kinda allegations that I am certain they wouldn't make to my face, if they actually knew me, or met me and remain standing. Safety in numbers I guess.

Get used to it...

Not safety in numbers, but safety behind the keyboard...;)

rat_catcher
02-14-2010, 02:00 PM
Just don't know how to start a new thread in these honored halls.
See my pic attached. I highlighted in yellow the icon. Go to the top left hand corner when in the forum and click on the "New Thread" icon. Then post away to your heart's content! :thumbsup:

Bly
02-14-2010, 02:06 PM
Sorry never gang blogged before. Not sure I have the skill set. Or the inate pettiness.

Is there an America's cup thread here? I looked for it after I got word of the US victory and posted it on my blog. I honestly forgot this is only for Bertram post mortems. I'll also take back the avricardo recipe. What was I thinking?
Then see if anyone is interested instead of hijacking an existing thread??

Rickiretardo
02-14-2010, 06:34 PM
After they threw him off the Yacht Forumn site for the same crap. He is a very special legend in his own mind? Rat Catcher dont ever bring up the 63 bertram that never even hit a light weight plastic buoy and broke a part in minutes fom a normal sea.at a normal cruise as stated by the only testifying eye witness. The captain and mate to the coast guard the next day after the accident. Or the other 63 that had half the side of the boat flapping in the waves?????Dont ever bring it up again please. or ricky retardo will not be doing his job?

Since Bly will never say this to my face and I can't just let it lie:

1. I heard a yacht sunk amid a shallow water artificial reef off the Carolinas.

2. I went to see the Yacht Forum photographs. YF said they were taken days after the sinking.

3. Like the rest of us who were fooled, I tried to figure out how that much damage could be done to any production yacht in one incident, like an impact with a buoy.

4. I came up with the idea the submerged artificial reef material might have moved so that either the boat hit the reef structures or the boat’s anchor snagged a submerged reef item – subway car – landing craft – and sliced through the seam between the bow cap and the hull.

5. Then I learned the Nov. 6 photos were actually taken Nov. 29, after at least one storm had the chance to bounce the Bert all over the shallow bottom. I was mad that I was thus deceived. And I had to laugh at how silly all the speculation became – including mine -- because I know what happens to wrecks on a shallow bottom during a tropical storm turned nor’Easter.

6. When I joined YF I made my case about the potential that the reef material was a cause or a contributing factor. Soon thereafter I complained on YF that the photos provided by the plaintiff were misleading as to the date. Not photos of a recent wreck but photos of a wreck weeks after an intense storm. (Those facts were deleted by the blog police.)

7. At that point poor Carl was confronted with admitting he had wasted everyone’s energy with the bogus photos provided by the plaintiff or with finding an excuse to end my brief membership in Yacht Forum. He decided it was more convenient to block my IP than confront a different, correct time line. He said he blocked my participation because I told the member who asked me, how to google my blog.

8. I then went forward with my original point, which was that it may be that the captain was not at fault, other than failure to slow the vessel when things went bad. He and his first mate may have hit something substantial in that artificial reef zone hard enough to wreck the bow and begin the process of the sinking.

9. And I was prepared to do what I have done since, which was demonstrate how much power mother ocean imposes over submerged vessels left unsecured on the bottom in shallow water. A dozens documented examples that should be sufficient to account for much of the photographic damage displayed on the poor battered Bert. (Then at least some of us could figure a reason the tower was broken, the hatches were open, the chairs in place on the helm and yet the transom was missing.

10. It started with a discussion of the risk of roaring through shallow artificial reefs. And it can end in some closure when you read the study I mentioned in my earlier postings. Don’t expect even steel ships to last long in stormy shallow water. And don’t be foolish enough to look at the plaintiff’s photographs, intentionally presented with the wrong date, and then correctly predict what really happened when the bow was damaged or what happened four years earlier, when the Bert 63 was laid up.

(I'll be in NJ this summer if you wanna discuss it further.)

Bly
02-14-2010, 06:55 PM
Since Bly will never say this to my face and I can't just let it lie:

1. I heard a yacht sunk amid a shallow water artificial reef off the Carolinas.

2. I went to see the Yacht Forum photographs. YF said they were taken days after the sinking.

3. Like the rest of us who were fooled, I tried to figure out how that much damage could be done to any production yacht in one incident, like an impact with a buoy.

4. I came up with the idea the submerged artificial reef material might have moved so that either the boat hit the reef structures or the boat’s anchor snagged a submerged reef item – subway car – landing craft – and sliced through the seam between the bow cap and the hull.

5. Then I learned the Nov. 6 photos were actually taken Nov. 29, after at least one storm had the chance to bounce the Bert all over the shallow bottom. I was mad that I was thus deceived. And I had to laugh at how silly all the speculation became – including mine -- because I know what happens to wrecks on a shallow bottom during a tropical storm turned nor’Easter.

6. When I joined YF I made my case about the potential that the reef material was a cause or a contributing factor. Soon thereafter I complained on YF that the photos provided by the plaintiff were misleading as to the date. Not photos of a recent wreck but photos of a wreck weeks after an intense storm. (Those facts were deleted by the blog police.)

7. At that point poor Carl was confronted with admitting he had wasted everyone’s energy with the bogus photos provided by the plaintiff or with finding an excuse to end my brief membership in Yacht Forum. He decided it was more convenient to block my IP than confront a different, correct time line. He said he blocked my participation because I told the member who asked me, how to google my blog.

8. I then went forward with my original point, which was that it may be that the captain was not at fault, other than failure to slow the vessel when things went bad. He and his first mate may have hit something substantial in that artificial reef zone hard enough to wreck the bow and begin the process of the sinking.

9. And I was prepared to do what I have done since, which was demonstrate how much power mother ocean imposes over submerged vessels left unsecured on the bottom in shallow water. A dozens documented examples that should be sufficient to account for much of the photographic damage displayed on the poor battered Bert. (Then at least some of us could figure a reason the tower was broken, the hatches were open, the chairs in place on the helm and yet the transom was missing.

10. It started with a discussion of the risk of roaring through shallow artificial reefs. And it can end in some closure when you read the study I mentioned in my earlier postings. Don’t expect even steel ships to last long in stormy shallow water. And don’t be foolish enough to look at the plaintiff’s photographs, intentionally presented with the wrong date, and then correctly predict what really happened when the bow was damaged or what happened four years earlier, when the Bert 63 was laid up.

(I'll be in NJ this summer if you wanna discuss it further.)
That bertrams are a POS built boat. I had friends that worked there and loved bertram til ferretti decided they new what was best for bertram. Now we all know what they meant.

Rickiretardo
02-14-2010, 07:11 PM
That bertrams are a POS built boat. I had friends that worked there and loved bertram til ferretti decided they new what was best for bertram. Now we all know what they meant.

Ok then. That pretty much covers it. Thanks.

KeyPineSavage
02-14-2010, 08:10 PM
Ricki

Please, we've been there (xxxx times) and done that (xxxx times.) Please, don't start it again. This re. your "brief" 10 item "recap."

About "meeting people," "face to face," etc., etc., believe and trust me.....some of the guys here with the hard mouths have hard hands too. You probably really don't WANT to meet them. :(

rickyrybo
02-14-2010, 08:12 PM
Good evening Rickyretardo. In another life, married to my first wife, my nickname was rickyrybotontocaesar.
Your ironic response to Bly was appropriate, but unless the artificial reef wrecks grew wings, the damage to the big Bert is still unexplained. The photographs show massive damage above the waterline and the observable core separation is indicative of a manufacturing defect.
Bertram obviously has "secondary bond" procedural issues that need to be addressed, but the catastrophic failure points towards heavy weather and large seas, that were not present at the time.
Rick.

Bly
02-14-2010, 08:40 PM
Good evening Rickyretardo. In another life, married to my first wife, my nickname was rickyrybotontocaesar.
Your ironic response to Bly was appropriate, but unless the artificial reef wrecks grew wings, the damage to the big Bert is still unexplained. The photographs show massive damage above the waterline and the observable core separation is indicative of a manufacturing defect.
Bertram obviously has "secondary bond" procedural issues that need to be addressed, but the catastrophic failure points towards heavy weather and large seas, that were not present at the time.
Rick.

I borrowed that from one of the few lawyers on THT that makes a lot of sense. This guy ricky tardo twisted things around so much on Yacht forum he got thrown off concerning his deflection of bertrams bad construction into the boat hit a heavy object that rose off the bottom from many fathoms below in a normal sea. THEN HE CHANGED his sign in name and came back again defending bertram against many experienced boat people, professionals. They blocked his IP address because of his nonsernse of changing the subject to man made reef dangers? The captain of the bertram that sunk said nothing was hit except nomal wave action. He swore this to the coast guard and still rickytardo wants us to believe there was not a catastropic failure of bertrams hull above the waterline in the bow area. He is trying again to deflect the bertram hull failure on deflection and untruths that if said enough will maybe be believed by some fool. then he wants to meet up with me in NJ this summer? Oh well I guess I am in trouble now? He has been on THT for 1 month and if you look up his post it is to lessen and confuse this thread about the second 63 bertram that had a catastropic hull failure above the water line in the forward section of the boat consisting of delamination. He will not be happy til he runs this thread into the bilge and destroys THT if he has to?

Grady678
02-15-2010, 06:06 AM
Can someone give me a brief update here? Last time I checked in here I think it was on page 6. Did they ever figure out the actual cause of the sinking?

Just thinking the same thing here Chris. Without reading dozens of posts, I believe the boat miraculously moved to an unfounded location for recovery efforts. Yet, another 'buoy type' theory has evolved recently from an unassuming new THT member. It has undertones of brilliance, or, pure corporate cover up. Some say the truth will never be known. I disagree.

gerg
02-15-2010, 07:00 AM
Just thinking the same thing here Chris. Without reading dozens of posts, I believe the boat miraculously moved to an unfounded location for recovery efforts. Yet, another 'buoy type' theory has evolved recently from an unassuming new THT member. It has undertones of brilliance, or, pure corporate cover up. Some say the truth will never be known. I disagree.

Yeah, the latest theories are a hoot. It seems a 20 ton subway car floated 30-40 feet to the surface on a choppy day and struck a boat above the waterline. Then the boat somehow traveled another 10 miles and sank, only to be crushed by the sandy bottom and eaten by starfish. Come to think of it, it was probably the starfish that lifted the subway car up and then dragged it back to it's original location.

It's all very logical and well thought out. Really. :grin:

Bly
02-15-2010, 07:16 AM
Yeah, the latest theories are a hoot. It seems a 20 ton subway car floated 30-40 feet to the surface on a choppy day and struck a boat above the waterline. Then the boat somehow traveled another 10 miles and sank, only to be crushed by the sandy bottom and eaten by starfish. Come to think of it, it was probably the starfish that lifted the subway car up and then dragged it back to it's original location.

It's all very logical and well thought out. Really. :grin:
>>>Yacht Forum because he was spamming any and all bad about bertram with floating rail cars that could take out the boat above water and destroy it with out touching or even leaving a mark on the hull below water line. In normal seas also. Maybe aqua man did it?? Anything but the bertram fell into pieces in a normal sea. It is a standard defense practice to shift the facts and offer enougher possibility no matter how remote? Keep throwing that remote possibility as many timers as you can until they forget what the original facts are! Defense lawyers who are defending guilty clients to the best$$$ of their ability use this tactic every day.

Battlewagon
02-15-2010, 07:29 AM
If you go to YachtForums someone has posted Betram/Ferretti's legal response to the lawsuit. Post # 313. They are claiming it is not a manufacturing defect but even it it is it isn't their fault. They're claiming everything but alien tractor beams could have done the damage.

1) Captain Error
2) Boat was altered somehow
3) Boat was fished in a tournament
4) Boat the boat from Marine max so it doesn't matter if it was built wrong
5) Bought the boat to use for charter which it is not suited for.

etc, etc, etc.

Read through the response before you deal with Betram/Ferretti. It speaks volumes about the company.

Grady678
02-15-2010, 09:46 AM
Take a look at defense (o). Pretty much sums up defendant's position.

http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/attachments/general-yachting-discussion/36354-video-sunk-bertram-discussion-bertrams-defenses.pdf?d=1265733562

PowerYacht
02-15-2010, 10:06 AM
Thank you Battlewagon but the example you bring are not really correct as it is more legal wording then anything. This is more a legal version of words meaning in my humble opinion more or less the following.

1) Captain Error - Possible as to anyone driving a car, plane or yacht
2) Boat was altered somehow - if you add equipment without manufecterer consent you know where this ends
3) Boat was fished in a tournament - this means the boat was used in the last 4 years
4) Bought the boat from Marine max so it doesn't matter if it was built wrong - this might mean they where not advised about this sale to transfer the gurantee
5) Bought the boat to use for charter which it is not suited for - Legally speaking there is code for charter or commercial use (MCA or similar class code) to any pleasure boat, which adds more or less 25% to the bill. This was not!

I think with Certifiable Bertram did honour the gurantee very well. This is a different situation first it was a 4 year old boat, second it was a stock to a previous dealer having over 500 hours. Last which is the worst thing is that the boat went total loss.

Raybo Marine NY
02-15-2010, 10:11 AM
if this is the case then with the exception of the charter excuse all left over Bertrams are now worthless, who would buy them if the builder is going to throw every excuse out there to deny a claim?

Lets just crush them or send them out blazing in a viking funeral

How they can even throw that charter boat excuse out there is sad, the damm thing did not even make it into the hands of the new owner yet to even consider chartering it.

What on the boat was altered?

Its pretty common for a dealer to take a nice spiffy new fishing boat out during a tournament, its advertising for the boat, all the dealers better stop doing that because Bertram is now opening the door for all other companies to start denying claims once a boat happened to be taken out during a tournament

miike
02-15-2010, 10:19 AM
So it wasnt brand new and on its maiden voyage as a sold boat?

Whats a warranty good for any more?

Grady678
02-15-2010, 10:35 AM
Tower addition may be the modification. Not sure.

PowerYacht
02-15-2010, 10:51 AM
Tower addition may be the modification. Not sure.
If the tower is made by someone else then Bertrams usuall contractor it can be the case.
No the boat was 2005 build 2006 model. This means build at the fall of 2005. Never titled and owned by MarineMax as previous Bertram dealer in the past. It had about 500 hours.
Why many speculate on delamination it might not be the case and I think more of a rub rail failure. There is some interesting posts by someone who repairs boats in Florida, how this might be more the case.

Raybo Marine NY
02-15-2010, 12:18 PM
somewhere in the video and in the screen shots lies a VERY nice shot of the hull and deck joint, you could not ask for a better joint then what is on those boats.

What is this rub rail failure theory?

Raybo Marine NY
02-15-2010, 01:55 PM
I think with Certifiable Bertram did honour the gurantee very well. This is a different situation first it was a 4 year old boat, second it was a stock to a previous dealer having over 500 hours. Last which is the worst thing is that the boat went total loss.

and the big thing you are leaving out- there were VERY public photographs of the side of that yellow boat peeling away and photos of it on land versus a boat sitting on the ocean bottom in 80' of water.

Battlewagon
02-15-2010, 02:43 PM
Thank you Battlewagon but the example you bring are not really correct as it is more legal wording then anything. This is more a legal version of words meaning in my humble opinion more or less the following.

1) Captain Error - Possible as to anyone driving a car, plane or yacht
2) Boat was altered somehow - if you add equipment without manufecterer consent you know where this ends
3) Boat was fished in a tournament - this means the boat was used in the last 4 years
4) Bought the boat from Marine max so it doesn't matter if it was built wrong - this might mean they where not advised about this sale to transfer the guarantee
5) Bought the boat to use for charter which it is not suited for - Legally speaking there is code for charter or commercial use (MCA or similar class code) to any pleasure boat, which adds more or less 25% to the bill. This was not!

I think with Certifiable Bertram did honour the gurantee very well. This is a different situation first it was a 4 year old boat, second it was a stock to a previous dealer having over 500 hours. Last which is the worst thing is that the boat went total loss.

I understand the legal wrangling very well. I would interpret this as an attempt to get the case thrown out before discovery takes place. Discovery would most likely include all internal company discussions about Certifiable and any other boats that had structural or fiberglass problems. There may be evidence that they feel they can't let out the door. I'm not going to claim to know what went wrong with that boat. But I know how Ferretti/Bertram reacted to it. Who among us would have thought buying a "new" Bertram from Marine Max would mean we were buying a boat that was unsuited to the purpose it had been used for - such as fishing in a tournament. Or that they were intending to use it for commercial charter. Not that they did use it but were intending to - so it's Ok if the boat falls apart.

DonQ
02-15-2010, 03:08 PM
I wonder how many Bertrams are used as charter boats? I guess all those 31s should never have been chartered. Why in hell would being a charter boat void your warranty if everything is maintained properly. These are fishing boats. Whether an owner and his buds going to Isla to catch sails, or 6 guys, a capt and a mate from Morehead City to catch dolphin, what's the difference?

davisjrjr
02-15-2010, 03:24 PM
If you go to YachtForums someone has posted Betram/Ferretti's legal response to the lawsuit. Post # 313. They are claiming it is not a manufacturing defect but even it it is it isn't their fault. They're claiming everything but alien tractor beams could have done the damage.

1) Captain Error
2) Boat was altered somehow
3) Boat was fished in a tournament
4) Boat the boat from Marine max so it doesn't matter if it was built wrong
5) Bought the boat to use for charter which it is not suited for.

etc, etc, etc.

Read through the response before you deal with Betram/Ferretti. It speaks volumes about the company.


One has to put themselves in a MFG's shoes - How can a MFG produce a product, have it completetly destroyed in use, (way out of it's control I might add, since it was made in 05 - this boat probably had more use than most 2006 boats in owners hands) - then have to drop it's pants and pay a $2M claim b/c the buyer / dealer / Capt'n were too stupid to Insure it!!?? Even if it was a "build" issue - how does anyone without a doubt prove that it was a defect after it has been kicked around on the ocean floor? We all have our opinions, but WE ALL have been proven wrong at times in the past, nothing wrong with having and sharing an opinion, and then choosing not to support or buy a product - but to demand a company to pay for some one else's mistake(s) places an undue burden on being a viable operation - Bertram / Ferretti or ANY other company - This is the very reason we have Insurance Companies. If you bought a 100K BMW, and it burned to the ground from an electrical short 6 months later - uninsured - do you think they are gonna foot the bill?

Waterdogs
02-15-2010, 03:31 PM
Just don't know how to start a new thread in these honored halls. I started one on the risks of artificial reefs at another blog. That worked out and was easy.

The other thing I don't know, yet, is what to do when people I don't know who don't know me make the kinda allegations that I am certain they wouldn't make to my face, if they actually knew me, or met me and remain standing. Safety in numbers I guess.

Just stop replying - problem solved

PowerYacht
02-15-2010, 04:08 PM
and the big thing you are leaving out- there were VERY public photographs of the side of that yellow boat peeling away and photos of it on land versus a boat sitting on the ocean bottom in 80' of water.

Sure! This can give the builder some money back. If Absolutely was a hull failure it would have been repaired.
But here the big problem that the boat went total loss, who the fault is no one knows so far and the owner was not INSURED.
I think mentioning those underwater photos and videos which are twenty plus day in the water is useless at this stage. Someone have news from the GRP samples the divers took during that famous dive. We are over two months away now when the divers went down, so sure they have all the data.

Someone with user name Aeronautic posted this on the YF I think is pretty interesting for a boat maker Hatteras which as Bertram is considered sort of bullet proof, and was more so in the nineties...
QUOTE
Back in the late 90's I was hired to go to Jamaica to oversee the repair and then delivery of a 61 Hatt CPMY. The owner and his captain were fishing a tournament out of Port Antonio. The owner stated that they were trolling when a 5-7' wave "slapped" the port bow area. Not thinking anything of it, they continued fishing until the highwater bilge alarm went off and they returned to port.
Here's what they found, and I supervised in repair (after the captain "bailed" on the owner). The hull to deck joint failed and the deck lifted as the port hull stoved in only to hang up on stainless fasteners for the stanchions, which lead to the injestation of water. The deck lifted 8 feet aft from the port bow and 5 feet aft from the stbd bow with glass damage to the port bow hull. Complete seperation of the tabbing away from the damage area.
These guys were trolling at what, 8-10 knots? So it was not like they were pushing the boat. I've never seen anything like this in 30 years.
UNQUOTE

Bly
02-15-2010, 04:27 PM
Thank you Battlewagon but the example you bring are not really correct as it is more legal wording then anything. This is more a legal version of words meaning in my humble opinion more or less the following.

1) Captain Error - Possible as to anyone driving a car, plane or yacht
2) Boat was altered somehow - if you add equipment without manufecterer consent you know where this ends
3) Boat was fished in a tournament - this means the boat was used in the last 4 years
4) Bought the boat from Marine max so it doesn't matter if it was built wrong - this might mean they where not advised about this sale to transfer the gurantee
5) Bought the boat to use for charter which it is not suited for - Legally speaking there is code for charter or commercial use (MCA or similar class code) to any pleasure boat, which adds more or less 25% to the bill. This was not!

I think with Certifiable Bertram did honour the gurantee very well. This is a different situation first it was a 4 year old boat, second it was a stock to a previous dealer having over 500 hours. Last which is the worst thing is that the boat went total loss.

>>>>>>A strong case of Power yacht error in his undying support of ferretti bertram, Poweryacht Is the one that alters everything bad about the bertram into something else? Poweryacht thinks that if a boat is fished in a tournament before the manufacturers certificate of origin is issued to a buyer so that he can get the title or a loan from the certificate of origin? Every boat manufacturer out there has taken quite a few Big Sport Fishing boats in many tournaments to show off their newest boat to the press and potential customers? Poweryacht thinks that sinnce marine max was the dealer that sold the bertram it does not have tohonor a guarantee?????? To bad that about a year and a half ago when ferretti bertram was unhappy with marine max and their affiliation with cabo and hatteras threatened? No they did not threaten!! They told marine max 2 octobers ago that they wanted all the bertram inventory back because of their new deal with Cabo and Hatteras. They told masrine max to get the boats all prepared to return to bertram and the check was in the mail????? Only problem is the bank check was happening the same time two octobers ago when all the banks had to tighten their belts or go under? So marine max had to stay as a bertram dealer even tho they didnt want them? No money honey. PowerYacht has been trying his best to confuse us on this POS bertram delamination what ever way he can> He was the first to blame the captain for hitting the buoy? Then he blamed the buoy until we all saw the light weight plastic buoy? Now he is saying today thyat the boat didnt delaminate? The rubrail was the problem?? Not the hull to deck joint but the rubrail? He is taking up where rickyritardo left off!!!! The Rule Of Deflection used by all defense lawyers all around the world. Change the spotlight from the obvious to any and all possibilities. Find a remote possibility of rail cars comming up off the bottom of a reef 60 to 80 ft deep in normal seas and cause a 63 ft bertram to have a catastropic above water hull failure in normal seas and not even put a scratch on the underwater hull?? That was rickytardos last deflection and now we have Power Yacht the great deflector.

gerg
02-15-2010, 05:22 PM
Btw, does the boat being uninsured mean anything to this case, other than the owners have to foot the legal bills until settlement?

Even if it was insured, the insurance company would likely go after the builder, no? At that point, they would just be dealing with a different plaintiff, but they would still have to deal or be sued.

I really am just curious on this. Does it make a difference in liability at all?

PowerYacht
02-16-2010, 02:05 AM
May be not by much Gerg, but it shows him to be negligible.
I know some cases here in Europe where rather new boats fell from a travel lift, and had some damage to them, and in one case four years later the owner is still running after his money. In another case he was paid after a year.

Hey Bly do you have a life apart being angry with those who do not agree with you! My support for Bertram Ferretti is that I like the brand. When the official word comes out that this was a construction error I will be the first to say shame to them. Most probably it is this way....
BTW nice posts on the construction thread from the Spanish guy really enjoyable.

PROFINITY
02-16-2010, 05:02 AM
PY- Can you explain what happened at the Atlantic City Boat Show a couple of years ago in the middle of the night to a Bertram that was on display? Why was the bottom of the boat all covered up and made inaccessible to the public? This would not have anything to do with the boat crushing under its own weight now would it? What was a repair crew doing there in the very early morning hours?

The theory of this particular boat coming apart because it allegedly hit the plastic buoy is comical.

CTW
02-16-2010, 05:12 AM
somewhere in the video and in the screen shots lies a VERY nice shot of the hull and deck joint, you could not ask for a better joint then what is on those boats.

What is this rub rail failure theory?


??? There seems to be some F/G tabbing missing in those photos, none of the hull/deck joint is glassed nor are some of the bulkheads and that fwd bunk top.

PowerYacht
02-16-2010, 05:52 AM
PY- Can you explain what happened at the Atlantic City Boat Show a couple of years ago in the middle of the night to a Bertram that was on display? Why was the bottom of the boat all covered up and made inaccessible to the public? This would not have anything to do with the boat crushing under its own weight now would it? What was a repair crew doing there in the very early morning hours?

The theory of this particular boat coming apart because it allegedly hit the plastic buoy is comical.

Agree on the buoy. Don't know about this but I think someone mentioned in other posts here. I am far from Altantic to know.

Raybo Marine NY
02-16-2010, 06:27 AM
??? There seems to be some F/G tabbing missing in those photos, none of the hull/deck joint is glassed nor are some of the bulkheads and that fwd bunk top.


no boat with a interior and liner like that is going to have a hull and deck joint glassed together.
The shape of the joint is very impressive, also a aluminum plate glassed into the joint so that the heavy rub rail can be bolted instead of screwed.

I would place my bet on the hull sides failing before the hull and deck joint, its not just a simple shoebox design like most boats and like that Hatteras had.

Bly
02-16-2010, 07:14 AM
no boat with a interior and liner like that is going to have a hull and deck joint glassed together.
The shape of the joint is very impressive, also a aluminum plate glassed into the joint so that the heavy rub rail can be bolted instead of screwed.

I would place my bet on the hull sides failing before the hull and deck joint, its not just a simple shoebox design like most boats and like that Hatteras had.

Only kidding Raybo. I agree 100% that they got the deck hull joint good. I used to go to pains to glass deck to hull joints instead of 5200 and screws. I have seen just a few screws holding a 20 ft center console deck joint together with waves squishing up through the joint when running through the ocean. The rubrail that power yacht alluded to is a non issue here. I agree also 100% its the failure of the hull side that caused this boat to sink. Its too bad that these others who have never taken a grinder to fiberglass or had the mek melting your nostrils throw all kind of sheit against the wall hoping to make something else stick besides Bertram feretti screwed the pooch on both 63 bertrams. You know sooner or later enougher one will surface and I hope no lives are lost.

jeffery1313
06-11-2013, 06:33 AM
I know the owner and boat john trough to and it was a 58 buddy davis

mdmakaira410
06-11-2013, 07:14 PM
I know the owner and boat john trough to and it was a 58 buddy davis

I read this entire thread this evening hoping to find some resolution with a recent post and this nonsense is what i get. epicccc faillllll

Stickbo
06-11-2013, 08:36 PM
Did I miss something??

Bly
06-12-2013, 04:49 PM
I know the owner and boat john trough to and it was a 58 buddy davis
Esplain why you dredged this to the surface. What does a 58 Davis have to do with a bertram splitting open and sinking?

downriver
06-12-2013, 07:10 PM
I read this entire thread this evening hoping to find some resolution with a recent post and this nonsense is what i get. epicccc faillllll

This.

:banghead:

Relisys190
06-12-2013, 07:45 PM
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/bertram-yacht/12624-yachtforums-exclusive-underwater-pictures-sunk-bertram-630-a.html

Cool pics

alacrity
06-12-2013, 07:49 PM
i remember this thread. it allegedly hit a plastic buoy and fractured the hull, causing it to sink.

any resolution?

Hull and Void
06-19-2013, 07:31 AM
Funny this was resurrected

Two questions:

1.) Wasn't there a video of Certifiable shot from the cockpit showing the hull peeling off? I can't seem to find it anywhere and most sites have taken it down.

2.) Is there a Bertram registry if I wanted to find a certain Bertram in a certain color scheme?

rickyrybo
06-19-2013, 08:04 PM
Funny this was resurrected

Two questions:

1.) Wasn't there a video of Certifiable shot from the cockpit showing the hull peeling off? I can't seem to find it anywhere and most sites have taken it down.

2.) Is there a Bertram registry if I wanted to find a certain Bertram in a certain color scheme?

CERTIFIABLE had a yellow hull, correct? I remember the pictures, her skin coat flapping in the breeze on her way back from the Bahamas.
Regarding the one that sank, excellent thread until camper "closed" it, or whatever he calls it.
I'm sure that Jon, Bills, Scratch and Buck have their opinions, and so do I. Catastrophic failure due to secondary bonding issues.
Rick.

Hull and Void
06-20-2013, 08:54 AM
CERTIFIABLE had a yellow hull, correct? I remember the pictures, her skin coat flapping in the breeze on her way back from the Bahamas.
Regarding the one that sank, excellent thread until camper "closed" it, or whatever he calls it.
I'm sure that Jon, Bills, Scratch and Buck have their opinions, and so do I. Catastrophic failure due to secondary bonding issues.
Rick.

Correct. From my understanding it was a 63 with major delamination. It was replaced with another 63 which was also condemned and then replaced with a 67 (maybe 70) which the owners appear to be satisfied with, fishing the tournament circuit. It can be seen at Cannonsport now.

I could have sworn there was a video that went along with the pictures.

Still looking for the other 63 with a dark hull and gold boot stripe.

ReelnFree
06-20-2013, 01:41 PM
Interesting read the first I heard about it.
www.reelnfree.com

http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx80/doris234/Reel%20n%20Free/June2010_3151-1.jpg (http://s743.photobucket.com/user/doris234/media/Reel%20n%20Free/June2010_3151-1.jpg.html)

Mine Now
06-23-2013, 01:45 PM
Back from the deep :o
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/bertram-yacht/12624-yachtforums-exclusive-underwater-pictures-sunk-bertram-630-a.html
I believe these are the still photo's extracted from the video



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