Marine Electronics Forum - Northstar 657

I am in the market to upgrade my existing Lowrance 480 combo sounder.
I fish inshore 5-10 miles,and intercostal marshes mainly.The unit I buy will be flush mounted in the console on my triton 220lts with a T top. The Northstar 657 looks good value as the kit has everything including the external antenna and the transom mount transducer. I have no experience of Northstar gear,only garmin and lowrance.
I would appreciate any wisdom out there on this unit and experiences with Northstar gear and service in general.
thanks

You'll need a C-MAP chip to get any useful charting capabilities out of it.

It can be difficult to get the gain set correctly to get the best view from the sonar.

Tech support is clueless about the units, and documentation is horrible.

The unit has no NMEA in, so unless you connect a Northstar VHF to it and use their sketchy "Navbus" proprietary connections, you won't be able to have full DSC polling (It does support NMEA out, however).

Unless you are using the Smartcraft capabilities of the unit, I'd keep looking. IMO, there are other, cheaper units out there that have much better support (Garmin) that will do more.

I'm currently running both Garmin equipment and Northstar/Navman equipment. I have more years on the Northstar's current stuff at this time, I've only had the Garmin equipment in for one full season. My Northstar/Navman equipment are a stand alone 6" FF a 6" Chartpotter interfaced into the Northstar AP380 and fuel sensors interfaced to the GPS. The chartplotter takes a C-Map chip and is very - very easy to use. The fish finder is also excellant, I particularily like the 200/50 mix feature on a full screen. It's also felxible and easy to use. For me the manuals were pretty good and the Northstar support has been good for me but I really haven't had to use them too much except for a bad fuel sensor. They immediately sent me a new one for free, in fact they sent me two just in case.

BTW if you do get a 657 it has a built in fuel management system that's awesome, all you need to do is buy a fuel sensor. I use both the Navbus and NMEA with mine. The 657 does have a NMEA input and output and is AIS compatabile.

These are very well built units and offer a good value. I also like my Garmin equipment alot although the Northstar FF may be a bit better. I believe Garmin is on the right path with their updates and I'm becoming more confident that they will come out with an elite sonar in the near future. I run the GSD 22 with a 4212 and yes it does display some noise, but not enough to really impact what I'm looking for so I don't get alot of heatburn over it. I think you would happy with Garmin or Northstar.

Good Luck

The Northstar 567 takes the C-MAP MAX chart. Code number NA-M022 will cover the entire East Coast including the Bahamas will full harbor detail.

Check with the board vendors for pricing.

I'm currently running both Garmin equipment and Northstar/Navman equipment. I have more years on the Northstar's current stuff at this time, I've only had the Garmin equipment in for one full season. My Northstar/Navman equipment are a stand alone 6" FF a 6" Chartpotter interfaced into the Northstar AP380 and fuel sensors interfaced to the GPS. The chartplotter takes a C-Map chip and is very - very easy to use. The fish finder is also excellant, I particularily like the 200/50 mix feature on a full screen. It's also felxible and easy to use. For me the manuals were pretty good and the Northstar support has been good for me but I really haven't had to use them too much except for a bad fuel sensor. They immediately sent me a new one for free, in fact they sent me two just in case.

BTW if you do get a 657 it has a built in fuel management system that's awesome, all you need to do is buy a fuel sensor. I use both the Navbus and NMEA with mine. The 657 does have a NMEA input and output and is AIS compatabile.

These are very well built units and offer a good value. I also like my Garmin equipment alot although the Northstar FF may be a bit better. I believe Garmin is on the right path with their updates and I'm becoming more confident that they will come out with an elite sonar in the near future. I run the GSD 22 with a 4212 and yes it does display some noise, but not enough to really impact what I'm looking for so I don't get alot of heatburn over it. I think you would happy with Garmin or Northstar.

Good Luck


I'd disagree; especially with the bolded part. It's just not true. If possible, can you point out what wire you are using as NMEA in?

I have two Northstar 660's, one is a Navman 6600 which is the same thing.

I have had no issue with the units. One is my dedicated FF hooked up to a Airmar B60 and the other is my GPS with the C-Map chip. The GPS is hooked up to my VHF for DSC as well.

For the money, they are good units. The only issues I've had is one day the GPS would not acquire/lock on the satellites/get a fix but the problem has never happened again and it was one day this past summer when it happened.

Another one I had was fogging and it happened when I would put the screen protectors/covers on overnight. I think it was trapping heat/moisture in the thing.

They are not the fanciest units out there but for the money and what I need them for, they work well. The 660 is about the same unit featurewise but with a 7" vertical screen versus the 657 which is 5".

I was going to get the gateway cable to use the units to monitor my engine but my guages do the same thing already.

The white NEMA IN cable interfaces into the yellow back connector. It does require optional AIS/GPS/Fuel cable cable. That cable enables the NEMA IN for other devices. It's detailed in section 18-10 of the installation manual.

The white NEMA IN cable interfaces into the yellow back connector. It does require optional AIS/GPS/Fuel cable cable. That cable enables the NEMA IN for other devices. It's detailed in section 18-10 of the installation manual.

That's interesting; when I was trying to install my Northstar 660 I called Northstar tech support several times who never knew the answer. I eventually got in touch with the Navico rep that Jim@BOE deals with, who confirmed with me it could not be done, despite the directions that you are talking about of which I am well aware. If you intend to use Smartcraft, you will not be able to use the fuel sensor "in" cable. The fuel sensor "in" cable is directly connected to the fuel sensor...that can be connected to the F210 fuel mgt gauge.

In order to use Smartcraft on the 657, there is a special "Y" converter (AA002458) for the 657 that you must use that is also NMEA/AIS in, but this operates at 38,400 baud--much faster than the speed tha DSC/GLL use, so it can't be used with DSC/GLL sentences.

The F210 Fuel Management gauge is a stand alone fuel gauge and doesn't interface with the 657 cabling. The fuel management software is built into all of Northstar's Explorer series GPS's and nearly all the Explorer series fish finders. They did the same with their M series. You simply hit the fuel page and everything comes up on a nice color garphical display. I'm currently using all this stuff and have swap the input to dispaly from fish finder to my GPS.

Reagrding the smartcraft baud rate, I really don't know because I'm using the fuel sensors. I do know that their NMEA IN and OUT format is the standard 0183 version 2 that is 4800 b/s.

They may not be able to understand the DSC sentence and that would be a problem if you're trying to interface a radio that's pushing that sentence. I do know they do understand the GLL lat/lon message so in that regard if you wanted to integrate your radio you would probably need to get theirs and use NavBus. I also use NavBus for information between my all my head units and I really have to say it's super simple to hook up and it really works great

Hope this helps - I think I'll let this thread get back on track.

Good Luck

If you can get a great price on the 657, it is good for what it does. They should be much less as they have been out for a while.

I do wish 2 things.

1. That the track/trail line was more visible on the screen, maybe a bit thicker and with the option to change the colors as can be done on the Lowrance GPS' I've seen and,

2. That when I zoomed in that the map/chart would stay on as opposed to the map going to a grid when zoomed in too far.

I still get where I need to go and back, and catch all the fish I can handle so . . .

Thundra, turn off plotter mode in you chart menu. It will stop it ove-rzooming to grid.

And 657 has double pixel witdth track, but black only, 660/6600 has one pixel width track lines so a bit harder to see.

And 657 has double pixel witdth track, but black only, 660/6600 has one pixel width track lines so a bit harder to see.

Yes they are.

The F210 Fuel Management gauge is a stand alone fuel gauge and doesn't interface with the 657 cabling. The fuel management software is built into all of Northstar's Explorer series GPS's and nearly all the Explorer series fish finders. They did the same with their M series. You simply hit the fuel page and everything comes up on a nice color garphical display. I'm currently using all this stuff and have swap the input to dispaly from fish finder to my GPS.

You are correct; the fuel sensor in to the 657 has nothing to do with the F210 (except for being the same sensor). I mispoke/wasn't clear.

Reagrding the smartcraft baud rate, I really don't know because I'm using the fuel sensors. I do know that their NMEA IN and OUT format is the standard 0183 version 2 that is 4800 b/s.

I wasn't referring to the Smatcraft transmission speed; I have no idea what that is. AIS, (what the 657 uses for NMEA in) uses 38.4K baud by definition.

They may not be able to understand the DSC sentence and that would be a problem if you're trying to interface a radio that's pushing that sentence.

I'm a bit confused; if I wanted to show someone else's position on my chartploter using DSC polling..wouldn't I require DSC/DSE "in" on my chartplotter? The 657 does not support this (http://www.northstarnav.com/Products/Chartplotters/Explorer-657/Specifications/).


I do know they do understand the GLL lat/lon message so in that regard if you wanted to integrate your radio you would probably need to get theirs and use NavBus. I also use NavBus for information between my all my head units and I really have to say it's super simple to hook up and it really works great



I'm not slamming the Northstar equipment just for fun; I spent countless hours on the phone with Northstar tech support testing different configs, and spent a lot of cash purchasing several new wiring harnesses to try and get DSC to work with a known working full DSC Standard Horizon VHF radio, only to give up on it to finally buy a Northstar 721 VHF (because they said THAT would work), only to find that the DSC polling works intermittently using Navbus, a condition Northstar tech support is aware of and says is normal.

If you got full two way DSC polling to work with either a 657 or 660, I'd love to know with what brand/model VHF radio, and exactly how you did it. You've done something that both Northstar tech support and their tech reps say can't be done.

Oddly enough...someone else just found out this is false as well:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/electrical-systems/dsc-radio-gps-compatibility-29424.html

saltyseadog, I have tried it every which way, but no matter what, when I zoom in enough, the chart detail/color will go away. I live with it as most times there is no need to see any detail anyway.

And yes, the 660 has a thin, almost etch-a-sketch-line for the trail. When I put it on night mode at night, it does look good though.

I will agree with you Joe, the polling function will only work with Northstar VHF's.

I have my unit/GPS hooked up to my Standard Horizon PS1000 VHF for safety/DSC.

Thundra have you turned off plotter mode? MenuX2, Chart setup, make sure plotter mode is unticked.

BTW, DSC will only work over Navbus with a Navman/Northstar VHF 7200, 721, 725.

Also Smartcraft uses a different com port than the NMEA in so Smartcraft and AIS can be run at the same time using the TRI cable.

Saltyseadog,

When I turn off plotter mode, all it does is stop me from zooming in closer than I would that if I have plotter mode on. And even then, I still lose the map. I have accepted that it is the design of the unit.

My GPS/660 sends a signal to my VHF so that if I hit the DSC/Panic Button, my GPS coord's will go to . . . someone.

I absolutely know that it works as my neices friend had played with my VHF and pushed the DSC button, I got 3 phone calls, one from USCG Sector Southeastern New England, one from the National SAR, and one from USCG Boston. All within 2 minutes of her having pressing the button.

At least the NMEA 0183 works to the VHF.

Lastly, this is the most information one is going to ever see on the Northstar Explorer Series GPS/FF's as not many people have or use them, and believe me, I've looked.

Well..........thank you all for the feedback- in the end, given the changes in the company
I got cold feet and went back into my Garmin comfort zone- I find the tech support outstanding at Garmin.I got a one of the new 500 series sounder units
Thanks

KD

Thundra, still doesnt sound right to me, what SW are you running? What C-Map chart do you have? Is mixing levels turned on? (mixing levels makes the unit draw chart areas nearby if you are over the chart boundry line)

Saltyseadog,

When I turn off plotter mode, all it does is stop me from zooming in closer than I would that if I have plotter mode on. And even then, I still lose the map. I have accepted that it is the design of the unit.

I have also found this to be true..depending on the map. On other maps, I can zoom in further and get more detailed depth from the chip.


My GPS/660 sends a signal to my VHF so that if I hit the DSC/Panic Button, my GPS coord's will go to . . . someone.
I absolutely know that it works as my neices friend had played with my VHF and pushed the DSC button, I got 3 phone calls, one from USCG Sector Southeastern New England, one from the National SAR, and one from USCG Boston. All within 2 minutes of her having pressing the button.

At least the NMEA 0183 works to the VHF.

Yep--it works OUT to the VHF..just not in to it. This kills using position request to friends, etc. Also..using Navbus..occasionally if I do too many position requests in a row (this affects both the 657 and the 660, and the requests only successfully work about once every 30 -45 minutes) it will reboot the unit.

According to their tech support, Northstar is aware of the flaw, but has no plans to correct it in a new software release.

Lastly, this is the most information one is going to ever see on the Northstar Explorer Series GPS/FF's as not many people have or use them, and believe me, I've looked.

Unfortunately, you are correct. With a unit that has so many quirks...this is another reason to not buy it. Sure..comparatively the Garmin GSD 22 hooked up to a new 42xx plotter might have as many issues, but Garmin works to correct them, and has a large user community who knows some work arounds.

BTW, DSC will only work over Navbus with a Navman/Northstar VHF 7200, 721, 725.

Also Smartcraft uses a different com port than the NMEA in so Smartcraft and AIS can be run at the same time using the TRI cable.

Just an FYI to anyone researching..the tri cable (AA002458) will NOT work with the 660..regardless what tech support says. I have the cable and have tried it..no dice. (it DOES work for Smartcraft in to the 657 however)

Well..........thank you all for the feedback- in the end, given the changes in the company
I got cold feet and went back into my Garmin comfort zone- I find the tech support outstanding at Garmin.I got a one of the new 500 series sounder units
Thanks

KD


I think that's an excellent idea. As you probably already know, you'll like Garmin's support network, both with the company and with the user community.

No, the tri cable only works with 557, 567 and 657.
The 660 does take NMEA in (although not AIS) if you want NMEA in on a 660 you need an AA010115 y cable that plugs into the Fuel port (white connector)

You are welcome to PM me any questions too.

No, the tri cable only works with 557, 567 and 657.

Not according to every web site, and Northstar. But you are correct.

The 660 does take NMEA in (although not AIS) if you want NMEA in on a 660 you need an AA010115 y cable that plugs into the Fuel port (white connector)

Not true. The AA010115 cable is a modified power cable with not as many wires as the normal power wire. I have one, if you'd like to buy it.

Trust me Joe, for NMEA 0183 in for a 660, M84, M121 the Fuel/NMEA Y cable is used. Its also sometimes seen as CB000156.

This cable is also used to POWER and input smartcraft to a Explorer 438 fishfinder.

The one I have won't work.

Do you have a pin out?

The manual says the included factory cable (that goes to the black connector on the 660) is:

Power/data cable:
Pin Wire Function
1 Black Ground: power negative,
NMEA ground
Note: The cable has two wires with black
coverings, the black wire (pin 1) and the shield
(covered with heatshrink). These wires are connected
within the cable and
therefore it does not matter which black wire
you use.
2 Brown Power out, 9 V DC (NOT USED)
3 White NMEA out
4 Blue NavBus-
5 Red Positive power in, 10 to 35 V DC
6 Orange NavBus+
7 Yellow Auto power in (connect to red
wire [positive power in] to
enable Auto power).
8 Green External beeper or light out

My AA010115 cable has a black connector (that plugs into the 660) that goes to a "Y", that breaks out into a MALE white connector, and another wire with:

Yellow (switched power)
Red(Power)
Green (alarms)
White (NMEA OUT)
Black(Ground, NMEA -)

From what the manual says..."Note: To use the NMEA input, a Northstar
special fuel cable is required"...Which plugs into the WHITE connector on the 660.

The "Special fuel cable" has a fuel sensor attached to it...with no other wires.

If you have a way around this, I'd love to hear it.

The accessory cable AA010115 Should plug into the white fuel port of the 660 for NMEA IN.
Dont connect power to it or anything. Just use the white wire for NMEA in. The white socket on that lead can then be used for a fuel txdr or smartcraft gateway.

Your existing power cable (black connector) should remain in the black socket at the back of the unit for power and NMEA out if required.

Per the owners manual, on page 65, the black connector has the power wire. You'll see from the pic of the AA010115, it has to plug in the black connector on the 660. Power to the unit can't come from anywhere else.
http://www.thehulltruth.com/members/joe-albums-northstar-electronics-picture43251-aa010115.jpg

Also, if you do use the power wires on the AA010115, the smartcraft can not plug into the white cable; it won't work.

No Joe, power comes from the orginal power cable, dont touch the power cable. Just use the pictured accesory cable on the white socket on the back of the 660, plug that black connector into the white socket, trust me, its ok. Then connect the white wire to your required NMEA feed.

I can try that I suppose (That's about the only thing I haven't tried)..but then i will have two black connectors going in the 660.

Dont worry, the connector for AA010115 used to be white, then they changed it for some reason.

Trust me. Just dont connect power to the cable thats all, just the NMEA In.

Its the ONLY way it should have worked all along.

What NMEA sentence are you trying to feed in?

It's never worked any other way, except with Navbus..sort of. I'm trying to input DSC/DSCE to the 660 to plot position requests.

I have a Northstar 721 VHF and am currently using Navbus, but it only works intermittently. And if I do a position request too many times in a row, it reboots the 660. Northstar is aware of and confirms the problem, but has no fix for it.

Not that I should expect them to...they have no idea how the AA010115 adapter works. Where did you get the info on that?

Dont bother, DSC to a 660, in fact any Navman/Northstar product is Navbus only with either VHF7200, 721 or 725. It shouldnt be intermittant though, I havent heard of that issue.
Could you describe your setup a bit more?
Are you getting reliable Lat/Long display on your VHF radio Via Navbus, or is that intermittant too?

The 660 and 721 are currently hooked up via Navbus. That seems to sort of work--I am able to get baro pressure and the "happy fish" info displayed all the time on my 660 from the 721.

When someone does a position send (or request) to me, it comes across fine on my VHF screen. It intermittently displays on my screen (maybe once every 45 minutes...it seems time related). The buddy track feature will only work the first time I try.

Also occasionally (maybe 1/5 attempts), if I do a position request to someone, it will reboot the 660. As I said..Northstar support is familiar with the issue (so they say) and says there is no fix.

The 721 manual says it will do DSCE out, and gll/gaa in. Is this incorrect?

Joe,

Would you still like to sell that cable? I need one.

the nmea in/out is on the power cord of the Northstar/Navman unit.Northstar is now part of Navico wich is Simrad/Lowrance. Northstar/Navman products will no longer be manufactured.