The Boating Forum - Invincible 33 and Bahama 31 Sea Trials - My results

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kerno
08-17-2007, 11:05 PM
News report from South Florida: I made the 5000 mile trip from Maui to South Florida for one purpose: To find and buy a 30 to 35 foot center console for use in Maui. I dive more than I fish and I use my boat a lot. The best fuel economy available in an outboard powered boat of that size is at the top of my list. Top speed is interesting, but if the boat will do 45, it is all I need in Maui's trade winds. So with good fuel numbers and a dry ride in mind, I came down here to seek the truth.

I've heard a lot about the improved fuel efficiency of the new 300 Verados. Fuel in Maui is expensive - a lot more expensive than in South Florida. I use my boat a lot, so it makes perfect sense to try and maximize the fuel economy of whatever new center console I buy. So, with two boats at the top of my list, I tried 'em out. Both boats were equipped with 300 Verados and the Mercury "Vessel View" data panel.

These two boats were high on my shopping list for different reasons. The Invincible 33, for the high fuel economy numbers recently posted here (over 2mpg at cruise) and well over a 60 mph top end (also posted here) with the 300 Verados moved it right to the top of my "Need to try" list. Again, I don't need 60 mph, but a hull that makes good speed might well be expected to make good fuel numbers as well.

I sea trialed the fully rigged Invincible 33this morning at 11 am. The water conditions in Biscayne Bay were flat and calm.

The Bahama 31, with its 11 foot beam, has a very large cockpit and appears ideal for several divers and the piles of gear and tanks they bring along. I sea trialed the fully rigged Bahama 31 out of Jupiter inlet at 3 pm yesterday. The water was 1 to 2, with about a 15 mph wind and rougher in the cut. It actually began to resemble Maui water and was the first and only choppy water I'd seen this week.

Everyone has their own opinions of the boats, the fit, the finish, the space and whatever. I don't need to get in that debate. The numbers I am posting below are the actual numbers taken from the Verado "Vessel View" data panels in both boats.

A note about the Invincible: The hull has a complex design with steps and notches that are said to increase efficiency at high speed. The boat did not hold plane well below about 29 mph and my primary interest is in what the fuel number were with the hull running as intended and on plane.

4100 RPM 30 mph 26 gallons per hour 1.15 mpg
4300 RPM 40 mph 32 gallons per hour 1.25 mpg
4600 RPM 43 mph 35 gallons per hour 1.23 mpg
5000 RPM 50 mph 47 gallons per hour 1.06 mpg
6200 RPM 56 mph 60 gallons per hour 0.93 mpg

I believe the large change in speed from 4100 to 4300 is caused by the boat not being fully up and on plane at 30 mph.

Here are the numbers for the Bahama 31:

3400 RPM 21 mph 16 gallons per hour 1.31 mpg
3500 RPM 28 mph 17 gallons per hour 1.64 mpg
3600 RPM 30 mph 18 gallons per hour 1.76 mpg
4000 RPM 37 mph 25 gallons per hour 1.48 mpg

Higher speed and wide open throttle was not done because the engines were brand new. As with the Invincible, the big change between 3400 and 3500 was the boat coming up onto full plane. I found the boat to be very dry.

For those who wan to go fast, I also got a ride on a Sea Hunter 35 with triples. It crossed the 70 mph with no problem.

Again, these are numbers I saw, with my own eyes.


aegunn
08-17-2007, 11:23 PM
Nice post, The Sea Hunter is very nice spent the last two days at their factory....

kerno
08-17-2007, 11:32 PM
The Sea Hunter looks to be very well built and to my eye would be an ideal tournament fish boat. It does not have a transom door, which limits its use as a dive boat. It is also a bit longer than I am looking for, but the construction techniques made it one I needed to check out. I also looked at the Renaissance Prowler 30 foot cat. It is huge inside and would work well as a dive boat and is also very well built, but the Maui launch ramp is so shallow that I need a slider tongue to launch a V hull. A cat, which has to have the sponsons above the trailer tires, would not never come off the trailer at the Kihei boat ramp.


Lazy Bones
08-18-2007, 12:25 AM
So which did you buy?

Tireless
08-18-2007, 07:09 AM
It appears the Bahama 31 was considerably more fuel efficient.

kerno
08-18-2007, 07:23 AM
The check has not been written yet. It has come down to a couple used boats and one new one. The used boats are an Intrepid 30 open and a Venture 34. Both are nicely setup and clean. The Intrepid does not have as much cockpit space as I'd like, but has all the tricks including a dive door. It also has a killer stereo and a lot of interior upholstery. It would be the hardest to wash down and keep looking nice. Fuel consumption numbers are OK, not exceptional for the weight and size. Its size makes it attractive for one handed operation, and will park easier in the driveway. It has a 9'6" beam. Getting into the console to add or change electronics is tough. Finding room for 12 tanks is also tough. It is the boat that my wife and friends would probably prefer. Coaming bolsters, forward seating and just plain plush. The chain locker is the biggest problem. The water is deep in Maui and the Intrepid 30 and 323 have chain lockers that are way too small for the size of the boat. I'd have to cut into the next compartment and put a pulley or roller in the original chain locker. There's storage everywhere on the boat, just not a lot of deck space. Fit and finish along with construction is superb.

The Venture is probably the leader at the moment. It as a very large cockpit, nice electronics, big transom door and large top. As the longest and heaviest boat, it also uses the most fuel. The best I saw on it was around 1.6 mpg at cruise with Yamahas.. It has a 10 foot beam (the max in Hawaii) and is going to eat every bit of the area I have to park it in and will probably stick out into the sidewalk. Build quality and fit and finish are great and the trim tab pocket vents seem to have cured the boat's "sticking to the water" and let it come on plane. There is still some bow rise, but the length will be a plus in the chop. The boat does not have much upholstery with short rear coaming bolsters. Easy to wash and has a decent chain locker. In deck storage is OK, not exceptional. My Jupiter 31 had more.

The Bahama 31 was simply the best performing boat of its size I've ever been on. We hammered the boat at every angle possible to the water in the cut and every time I cringed fearing that the boat was going to slam on impact. it just ate the water up. It stayed dry, has almost no bow rise and there's not much I don't like about it. It is huge because it is 11 feet wide and that is a foot over what I can legally tow. It also does not have good access to the inside of the transom for keeping the engine bolts tight. The only access is a panel under the transom door. The boat has a lot of storage, but it is either inside the forward area of the console under the deck or under a single hatch in the rear. There are not the usual array of lockers and hatches The boat would also be easy to wash down. No other boat that I tested in the size range came close to the real fuel numbers of the Bahama 31. The only thing that beat it for fuel usage was the Southport 28, a boat I really like, but is just too small. The Bahama would probably be the first choice except for the price. It is a new boat and they have not taken the price hit that the used ones have. By the time it had electronics on it, it is going to be a lot (like 60 or 70k) more than the Intrepid or the Venture. Used boat prices are soft and in a market like this, the pricing is determined by the buyers, not the sellers.

Today is decision day. Mythbusters could do well here with a program on fuel numbers.

JDBer94
08-18-2007, 08:10 AM
Kern O.,

I'd like to be the first to thank you for your detail report on both the Invincible 33 and the Bahama 31. Your findings are somewhat surprising to say the least in terms of fuel efficiency. I do find it interesting that the Bahama is more efficient given its heavier weight and "classic" hull design. Additionally I now wonder about the "claimed" fuel burn numbers posted on here from Invincible fans over the past few weeks. Also it appears that it may be difficult to run the Invincible in heavy sea's at 30 - 35 mph based on your report.

Additionally I find it interesting that the numbers on the Venture were so good.

Best of luck with your decision.

Tireless
08-18-2007, 08:15 AM
Is there any reason why you left the Fountain 34 or 38 off the list....either boat will be the MOST fuel efficient boat in the group and there are some great deals (relatively low $'s) out there?

kerno
08-18-2007, 08:41 AM
I don't have any real objection to the Fountains. Their rough water abilities are legendary. But they lack a bit is the cockpit area as a result of fairly narrow beams and long bows. That beak works and makes a Fountain look like a Fountain, but adds no floor space. Probably the biggest issue for me is the wood in the hull. That issue has been debated for years and while I acknowledge that composites may have their own set of problems, any boat with wood in it is a no go to me.

TwentyFourSeven
08-18-2007, 08:42 AM
I find those numbers for Invincible strange. Something just does'nt seem right. I thought they would be better than that.
Did you look at Yellowfin's?

kerno
08-18-2007, 08:54 AM
I'm off the buy a boat at the moment, so I'll be back on line this evening. Yes, I looked at Yellowfin, but don't want the balsa core or glass fuel tanks. The Invincible numbers are correct and I'll discuss my opinion of of the Peters hull later. I think Invincible faces some teething problems.

kerno
08-18-2007, 08:57 AM
I'm off the buy a boat at the moment, so I'll be back on line this evening. Yes, I looked at Yellowfin, but don't want the balsa core or glass fuel tanks. The Invincible numbers are correct and I'll discuss my opinion of of the Peters hull later. I think Invincible faces some teething problems.

I posted the results as what they were - the results were what I saw. There are a lot of boats out there to try and I picked the ones that appealed to me. There are probably better or worse ones, but the issue here is not what kind of boat I should buy. It is simply my opinions, criterea and most importantly, the data I saw.

tripleplay1
08-18-2007, 09:01 AM
34 Fountain has a 9'6" beam? In your first post you indicated fuel efficiency was most important then you indicated later that the boat with the first fuel efficiency was your first choice thus far??

tobnpr
08-18-2007, 09:02 AM
Don't have a dog even close to this hunt being an inboard owner- but I find it really interesting that the boat can't seem to plane below 26 kts ;? ;?

Seems ridiculous to me- what's supposed to happen in rough seas when you can only make 20 kts without losing your fillings? BTW, what were the load conditions of the boats (full fuel? water? # of POB?).

Sounds like you're doing your homework- good luck. Man, I thought Florida was paradise until I spent some time in Lahaina :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

aegunn
08-18-2007, 09:17 AM
look at a new 25 Contender 28' long with 150 4 strokes and get 2 mpg.........

Tireless
08-18-2007, 09:32 AM
tobnpr - 8/18/2007 9:02 AM

Don't have a dog even close to this hunt being an inboard owner- but I find it really interesting that the boat can't seem to plane below 26 kts ;? ;?

Seems ridiculous to me- what's supposed to happen in rough seas when you can only make 20 kts without losing your fillings? BTW, what were the load conditions of the boats (full fuel? water? # of POB?).

Virtually every big go-fast pops up on plane in the high 20's or low 30's. That's why you often hear the drivers say "Man these seas are getting nasty, I am going to firewall the throttles to smoothen the ride".

Johnnie27
08-18-2007, 09:33 AM
Kerno: did you look into the mckee craft 28? twin 250's very good fuel burn. there's a loaded one left in Jacksonville, not to far, bout 4.5 hr drive from Boca.

I was just at Intrepid factory in Dania, they have an amazing dive door in the cockpit, although they have a huge price tag as well!

Drifter
08-18-2007, 10:08 AM
kerno- Thanks for the detailed info.

TwentyFourSeven
08-18-2007, 10:17 AM
kerno - 8/18/2007 8:54 AM

I'm off the buy a boat at the moment, so I'll be back on line this evening. Yes, I looked at Yellowfin, but don't want the balsa core or glass fuel tanks. .

They will install all alluminum tanks, all you have to do is ask for them.

PAULN
08-18-2007, 10:18 AM
This is the first thread I've enjoyed in months- Thanks for the info....

fish46
08-18-2007, 02:27 PM
Kerno,
How was the ride in the Seahunter,was it dry .Any other comments on the Seahunter.
Nice honest post about the other boats...

mymojo
08-18-2007, 02:38 PM
Very interesting read so far. Have enjoyed all the detailed information even though this is not the style boat I'd ever be looking for. Anyone buying a boat for this kind of $$$ would do well to emulate the kind of homework that Kerno is doing!

kerno
08-18-2007, 05:10 PM
I bought a boat, but I'm boarding a flight to Los Angeles in 3 minutes. Details to follow. I appreciate the suggestions on the smaller boats, but I wanted 30 or bigger and am just posting the results of the boats I was actually on and got decent, repeatable data. I did sea trial an Interepid 323 with the dive door. I also went through the Intrepid factory. I was impressed with how the build boats and how they "kit them out" from start to finish. Everything is pre-cut or pre-fit, but they'll still make any change you want.

clinecs
08-18-2007, 07:23 PM
Thanks for the report and good luck with whatever you decide!

I would say it is a little more than just "interesting" concerning these reported numbers of Invicible. Never once did I buy the "2mpg" claim, I have yet to see a boat over 30' get 2mpg in the real world conditions. I thought this boat was supposed to be in the mid-sixties at WFO....56???? I will leave my assumptions about this boat to myself, but think we are starting to see and hear The Hull Truth about this boat.

Is the Seahunter stepped? Whats the beam on this boat?

aegunn
08-18-2007, 08:12 PM
Re; Seahunter, no step, just a reel nice bottom, 9'10" beam.......should have new Seahunter post by mid day Sunday.

Twister
08-18-2007, 08:55 PM
clinecs - 8/18/2007 7:23 PM

Thanks for the report and good luck with whatever you decide!

I would say it is a little more than just "interesting" concerning these reported numbers of Invincible. Never once did I buy the "2mpg" claim, I have yet to see a boat over 30' get 2mpg in the real world conditions. I thought this boat was supposed to be in the mid-sixties at WFO....56???? I will leave my assumptions about this boat to myself, but think we are starting to see and hear The Hull Truth about this boat.

Is the Seahunter stepped? Whats the beam on this boat?



Very true. I just can't stand how one of the supposed owners (or maybe he is just a front man versus the money guy) slams other boat companies and then back peddles trying to say he is doing us all a favor by pointing out the flaws of other manufacturers...whatever. :trout:

Anthem
08-18-2007, 08:58 PM
kerno - 8/18/2007 5:10 PM

I bought a boat, but I'm boarding a flight to Los Angeles in 3 minutes. Details to follow. I appreciate the suggestions on the smaller boats, but I wanted 30 or bigger and am just posting the results of the boats I was actually on and got decent, repeatable data. I did sea trial an Interepid 323 with the dive door. I also went through the Intrepid factory. I was impressed with how the build boats and how they "kit them out" from start to finish. Everything is pre-cut or pre-fit, but they'll still make any change you want.

Great news!! Can't wait to hear what you bought and get some of that great analytical data you've been providing.

Hope the shipping costs are easy on your wallet. :thumbsup:

catch up
08-18-2007, 09:13 PM
Kerno did you sea trial the Bahama out of Henley Marine in Jupiter? My Bahama is over there getting some final options that I should have done when I bought the boat. Glad to hear you had a good sea trial, and I agree with your assessment. The Bahama has a very efficient hull for its size and it can carry a good deal of weight with out sacrificing performance. I too am surprised that the Invincible didn't have a better showing, have they finished figuring out the final set up as to motor height and prop selection? Again congratulations on your new Intrepid. :thumbsup:

Afishinado
08-18-2007, 09:23 PM
Thanks for letting us in on your experience!
Would like to hear your take (for comparison) on the used 34 Venture you ran, I'm assuming it had Verados. I get to ride a friends with 250 OX-66's, nice nice boat.

kerno
08-19-2007, 02:51 AM
I did demo the Bahama at Hensley's in Jupiter. He was a Venture dealer for years and rigged a lot of them including the used Venture 34 that I bought. I wanted to keep the beam at 10 feet, so in spite of the performance of the Bahama 31, I had to pass on a sweet deal on one.

Why the Venture after all the other demo's? The price was just too good not to buy it. It has the room I want and enough length to perform well in our steep chop. I was very pleased with the performance and layout of my Jupiter 31, but did not buy another one because of the lack of a transom door. The Venture is a lot like a scaled up Jupiter and I found the fit and finish to be equal to its reputation. As everyone knows, the used market is soft. I got a deal on the Venture that I could only have dreamed of a year ago. The boat is clean, well set up and does not need much more than pivoting dive ladders and a windlass to work for me in Hawaii. Now all I have to do is get it from Florida to Maui in one piece.

kerno
08-19-2007, 03:31 AM
How did the Venture run compared to the Bahama 31? Had I not driven the Bahama first, I'd have probably thought the Venture was about the perfect boat for me - other than the beam. The Bahama is drier. We were out in slop and the engine cowls were still dry and dusty after a half hour of trying to make it toss some spray up on us. The Bahama has one more full length strake than the Venture and I think that between the strake and the fullness of the Bahama bow it just does a better job of spray control. I did manage to spray everyone in the same water with the Venture. Not badly, but I did. But, on the other hand, I think the Venture rides a bit softer than the Bahama for three reasons. First it is narrower and has a longer running surface. Secondly, the bow is not quite as full. Last, the boat is heavier. The boats are similar, but different. The Bahama is the better hull. The Bahama is also better on fuel by about 10 percent. It was not an easy choice for me.

I chose the boat to fit the way I use the boat. I dive more than I fish and when we fish, we very rarely use live bait. Trolling seems to put food in the fish boxes without much effort, so live well volume is not a big issue to me. If I were going to use the boat primarily for fishing, the Sea Hunter might have been the choice. They are a kevlar hull, so they are light and strong. The boat shows its light weight in its handling and ride and I think it would be easy to get it airborne. There is a downside to a kevlar hull: They are so strong and stiff, that there is almost no flex, so the fiberglass does not absorb much of the shock. That means that even the bumps from a small, sharp wake can be felt. But that's a small price to pay for the strength and performance of the hull. The Sea Hunters are very competitively priced. At the same time, I have to add that the Contender 33T impressed me a lot earlier this year. It, like the Sea Hunter, is not really right for my needs.

The Sea Hunter, like the Venture and the Bahama, is a non stepped hull. Based on the race boats I've driven and what I felt this week, it is my opinion that a while stepped hull may have an advantage at high speed, they are also more difficult to get on plane. The Sea Hunter I was on had triple 300 x two strokes on it and was a mid 70 mph boat. I don't think putting steps in its hull would have added enough performance on top to make up for the loss of planing down low.

Last comment: Why the need for a transom door? After you get suited up in a layer of neoprene and put about 80 pounds of hardware on the top half of your body so your balance is way off and you jump in the water just to realize you left something on the boat and have to climb back onto the boat soaking wet and mad, you'll understand why lifting yourself in and out over the transom is just not fun.

Kern O

Tireless
08-19-2007, 07:22 AM
Congrats and thanks for the detailed report. :thumbsup:

Afishinado
08-19-2007, 07:37 AM
G R E A T choice! Best of luck with it, and a photo or two would be nice.

JDBer94
08-19-2007, 08:07 AM
Great informative thread, it reminds me of THT from years back.

Nice move on the Venture. Please keep us informed on if you achieve fuel numbers posted when running the boat in "real life".

catch up
08-19-2007, 08:31 AM
Great report and congrats on the Venture, from your previous post I thought you went with the Intrepid. The Venture is a great boat I am sure you'll enjoy it.

Johnnie27
08-19-2007, 09:47 AM
congratulations! great report!

is it true that Venture makes "the best CC out there" in terms of fit/finish-resale-reputation etc. thats what i read about yr ago on tht, venture vs. yellowfin vs. Jupiter vs. intrepid

makosteve66
08-19-2007, 10:33 AM
Congratulations! and nothing but the best of luck with the new boat. You did your homework, knew what you wanted, and found the best match to your needs. The rest is easy. You put the time and effort into the decision and that will pay off in the long run. I have never heard anyone go wrong with a Venture!, they are possibly my favorite of the big CCs. At the Verado Club Weekend, there were 2 venture 34s there, and I fell in love with them.

I hope that one day I am in the enviable position to be faced with a similar choice, and will revisit this thread for its valuable information. The power is Yamaha? F250's I would imagine? Nothing wrong with that, in fact, today's power choices - there are no wrong choices. They all perform rock solid. I would assume that the dealer support there is good, and here's hoping that you hardly, if ever, need it.

I was not following THT for several weeks, as I was out with what turned out to be some pretty major ankle surgery. It looks like ot will be another 2 months before I hit the decks of my boat again. So I must have missed it and have to ask, Hope I am not bringing up any sore subjects. What happened to the old boat?

Again, My sincere and fond wishes for nothing but the best with the new boat! I don't think there was a wrong choice, just different, and you went with the one that best suited your needs, you will not look back. Now, I just need to be able to get out there and visit with you some!

Best Regards,

Steve

lcosta01
08-19-2007, 03:19 PM
I sea trialed the all black Invincible 33 w/ twin 300 Verados. I did not post this picture on other post because it came out blurry, but you can clearly see 63.9 MPH... and this wasn't WOT. We had 6 200 lb. guys, hard top, and 150 gal. of fuel.

http://i16.tinypic.com/4xxzek6.jpg

And the Verado screen was reading 58.2 GPH. I didn't take a pic of that, because I was holding on.

Anthem
08-19-2007, 03:37 PM
kerno - 8/17/2007 11:05 PM

Top speed is interesting, but if the boat will do 45, it is all I need in Maui's trade winds... I sea trialed the fully rigged Invincible 33this morning at 11 am. The water conditions in Biscayne Bay were flat and calm.

A note about the Invincible: The hull has a complex design with steps and notches that are said to increase efficiency at high speed. The boat did not hold plane well below about 29 mph and my primary interest is in what the fuel number were with the hull running as intended and on plane.


lcosta - "Top speed" was NOT Kern's priority as you can see from the pertinent points on his 1st post, it was the issue of Invincible not planing well at speeds below 30mph.

Kern - Congrats on the Venture, awesome boat and good for you that you narrowed down your decision to a vessal that fits your needs versus the propaganda that seems to be posted all over the net these days (agree with you 100% Jeff!).

I hear you had lunch with a couple of my buddies of mine in Pompano Beach, wish I could have made it. :thumbsup:

lcosta01
08-19-2007, 03:51 PM
He chose the boat he found to be best, and God Bless him for it. That's why there's more than one boat company out there.

Venture makes a beautiful and magnificent boat. I know he will be thrilled with it. I have ridden a 39 and was extremely impressed.

Enjoy the ride!

Auburn1
08-19-2007, 04:07 PM
If diving is your primary sport you need to look at more than just fuel numbers...like how easy the boat will be to enter/exit the water and how stable it is at anchor.

rocksandblues
08-19-2007, 04:25 PM
nice report. i have not yet ridden on a stepped hull. i am jealous of your home port... are there no boats to buy in maui and how much does it cost to ship one there??

kerno
08-19-2007, 04:28 PM
Icosta: We were on a recently delivered customer's Invincible 33 with only 3 people. It has brand new graphics on the side with some naked women in the logo. The captain was probably 175 ponds, I'm 185 and John is about 180. The boat had 3/4 of a tank and the speed numbers were off the mounted GPS unit. The Verado panel runs off water pressure and is somewhat inaccurate. The only figures I considered valid from the panel were the gallons per hour, because the miles per gallon is calculated based on the water pressure seen at the engine pitot tube. I did not use a handheld GPS because the motion of your body bouncing around can cause erroneous readings. The boat had about a half tank of fuel and the water conditions were ideal. A difference in speed of over 7 mph represents about over hundred horsepower. If you say your were not at WOT, that only makes the matter even worse.

If we both got accurate data and you were not using a handheld GPS, Invincible needs to recall the customer's boat now and find out what was wrong. Either an engine is dead or there is a hull problem. There's no other way to explain the difference. Once they get the boat fixed, I'll be happy to go out on it again, since I will be coming back to pick up my boat. If the numbers change, I'll post 'em. As an alternative, can you get me a ride on the black one? Until then, I stand firmly by the numbers I posted.

sarzach
08-19-2007, 04:49 PM
He is correct on the numbers. The boat that he ran was "loaded for bear". I ran the boat the day before he got on it and it only ran 57 mph. The boat in question was not cored, it is a solid laminate as that is what the customer requested. The boat did have a 48" open array and polycarbonate windshield. The owner like Kern O is not interested in speed, he is interested in ride. Kern O is absolutely honest in his findings (although I was not on the boat). The all black 33 does have a hard top and does run 64.4. @ 40 mph it IS getting 2mph. Remember this boat is cored w no radar and 1/2 fuel without labbed props. When you load it down with tanks, extra fuel, fresh water, dive gear, tackle etc it is bound to get less, that is common sense. If the boat you bought suites your needs the best than you purchased the right boat for YOU. I have no hard feelings whatsoever. Good Luck.

Hammer

kerno
08-19-2007, 04:59 PM
Maui is an island with 95,000 residents. It is a part of the state with the fewest boats per capita and the least number of boats of any state. Yeah, a state that is a bunch of islands and boats are scarce. There's a dealer on Maui who carries primarily Trophy and sells Hondas and Mercurys. So, there are boats for sale in Maui, but not many and nothing that I'd like to buy. I don't have any problem with the idea of going to South Florida, the Mecca of center consoles. Any shape, size and color. So, I buy there, trial to California, insure it well and hand it to the shipper.

It costs about $7,000 to ship the Jupiter 31 from Long Beach, CA to Maui.

kerno
08-19-2007, 05:01 PM
I have some data and comments on the Intrepids, Contender 33T and Renaissance that I am going to post this evening in a new thread.

lcosta01
08-19-2007, 05:49 PM
Kerno, that is my buddy's boat. I can see why you experienced those numbers. As you saw, that boat has SOOOOOO many silly gadgets. That boat was not expected to run very hard, because of all the crap is has. You'd be amazed at what it has.
Hammer is right. Kerno wasn't looking for top speed. He got what was best for him.

Sal4
08-19-2007, 07:54 PM
Thanks for the impartial report, nice choice and enjoy..

kerno
08-19-2007, 09:02 PM
lcosta and Hammer:

I have more than a little trouble with the idea that having a solid bottom instead of cored and having too many toys on the boat is worth almost 8 mph and cuts the gas mileage darn near in half, taking it from the black boat's reported 2 mpg at 40 to the 1.25 mpg I saw with my own eyes.

I stand by my numbers, but have an easy fix to solve the problem: SHOW ME.

I'll be back there in about a month and I want to go out on the black boat. Fair enough?

lcosta01
08-19-2007, 09:43 PM
Kern, I am not trying to change your mind. Not even thinking about it. The Venture is a phenomenal boat. Top notch in every aspect. I was just commenting on the fact that those aren't the numbers I experienced. Talk to Hammer or Alex at Invincible for a sea trial. I'm sure they wouldn't hesitate to take you out.

FWIW, that boat has a TON of toys. I mean a TON. Either way, talk to them.

Kern, did you check out the pic I posted on page 2 of this thread?

Again, I am not trying to change your mind, just stating that we experienced two different boats.

kerno
08-19-2007, 09:49 PM
lcosta01 - 8/20/2007 6:43 PM

Talk to Hammer or Alex at Invincible for a sea trial. I'm sure they wouldn't hesitate to take you out.



Uh, We arranged the sea trial through Rob Hammer, not through the boat owner. We went from the Invincible plant to the sea trial. This was not a back door process or something that was unknown to Alex or Rob.

marlin7
08-19-2007, 10:25 PM
Those numbers for that Invincible that Kerno was on were probably real world, not some lightened up, half t-topped, unrigged boat to show off, the real world numbers are similar to what seahunters and yellowfins run. They all run about the same speed, with the same power and rigging, within a very few miles an hour here or there. Kerno, went for a ride on a real world boat, probably rigged out with most of the stuff we would put on a boat. As lcosta always points out, be happy with what you buy, as he lives with his purchase we live all live with ours' be them cabos, seahunters, merritts, garlingtons, or bayliners. Everyone should enjoy their boats.

Auburn1
08-19-2007, 11:06 PM
I guess I don't understand the point of this thread, or at least the point of a prospective buyer with so much emphasis on performance numbers when performance is not a primary concern. All of the boats mentioned are going to burn roughly the same fuel at 3/4 throttle, give or take a couple of gallon-tenths an hour. All of these boats are water rockets and will run faster than most captains can handle safely. But not all have the same features that might appeal to divers, such as a transom door that helps when loading tanks or enough room on the transom (or bracket) to ease access. Last thing I would want is to pop $200K+ on a name-brand boat then on my first dive realize that a pair of oversized gas-guzzling black 4-strokes impedes my exit from the water.

kerno
08-20-2007, 12:37 AM
Auburn1; Your statement: "I guess I don't understand the point of this thread, or at least the point of a prospective buyer with so much emphasis on performance numbers when performance is not a primary concern", certainly deserves a response. So do several other concerns you've voiced, so here we go:

.The only reason that performance numbers even came in here was because of the numbers previously posted about the Invincible. I did not ask to see the top speed on the Invincible, but the person driving the boat elected to show me. You'll note that the speed on the Bahama 31 stopped at 4000 rpm, which was fine with me. But I'd be nuts if I did not look seriously at a boat that delivers 25 percent more fuel economy (2 mpg at 40 mph) than anything else out there. As a result, I took the time to arrange a sea trial to see if it was a replicable real number or not. What's the point of the thread? Everyone here is interested in what is out there and available. It is like auto magazines. You don't have to own a F-150 (or whatever) to read about a F-150. But if you read an article that said there was a new F-150 that was priced about the same as the C1500 or the Dodge Ram, yet got 25 percent better mileage, you'd be very interested if you were in the market for a new truck.

I think my numbers clearly show that all the boats do NOT burn roughly the same amount of fuel within a "few gallon tenths per hour", even with identical engines.

I went to Florida to buy the best balance of price, fuel usage, space and quality of construction as I could get. Before we went, we lined up several plant tours and sea trials. Some of them yielded results that were as advertised (or better). Some did not. Most of the people who follow this forum like to keep abreast of what is happening in the world of boat building, so when something exceptional appears, it is nice to get a second opinion. I have offered that second opinion. It is, by all measure, my own opinion. Should I have kept it to myself, which you may have preferred since you said you did not understand the point of the thread? I don't think so. A forum such as this is for the sharing of information and I have shared the information I recorded. In doing so, I may save someone else the time and cost of going through the same process.

Additionally, you've said "a pair of gas guzzling black 4-strokes....." Please, kind sir, tell me what engines out there consume less fuel. Name, date, time, water conditions and multiple rpm points, please. You'll note that I did not buy a boat with black engines and that neither my last boat or the one before had black engines. The last one that did was my 25 Parker (see below} But based on what I recorded, I have to ask what out there does better than the 2008 Verado 300s on a large boat. I have the opportunity to repower the boat before I ship it, so if there is something I missed or got wrong, please don't hesitate to set me right. You are cordially invited to spend a week looking at how the engines are built and running them, followed by posting a thread with the results. NO factory or published numbers, but the numbers you actually got when you were on the boat. I'll be sure to read it and understand the point.

I'm also going to take this opportunity to post a pictures of how I've tried to avoid any engine impeding your entry and exit. Here's a shot of the ladders on my last three boats. There's a ladder on each side in every case. FWIW, I make about 400 dives a year, most on rebreather. The pictures, in order, are the Jupiter 31, the Stamas 29 and the Parker 25. The Jupiter ladders were put on the side of the swim step as an evolutionary change both to provide greater clearance from the engines and to change the motion of the ladders when the boat is pitching, When they are on the rear, they move toward and away from you as the move up and down. When they are on the side, they move across your body instead.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n114/kern-o/FLL8-07135.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n114/kern-o/StamasLadders.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n114/kern-o/Parkerladders003.jpg

fishcop
08-20-2007, 08:24 AM
I think this is a great post!! Its wonderful when someone has the opportunity to ride various boats and post their opions and experiences of what the found. Remember these are opinions and what they found under various conditions. Kerno bought the best boat for him after making a very informed decision, and taking the time to travel thousands of miles and sea trial perhaps some of the best boats in the industry. He's not saying one is better than the other, just that the one that fitted his needs the best, is the one he chose. So many people here take things the wrong way all the time. It is also important to note that just because one person has performance numbers different from another person doesn't mean that anyone is lying. There are so many factors to consider when calculating numbers that its almost ridiculous. I have fished on a boat one day with a certain captain, and the next day with a different captain, and the difference from one day to the next in how the boat rode and what kind of numbers it got was amazing. And that is just one of the many variables involved. Kerno, Good luck with your new purchase, I can't wait to see pictures!!!!!

RI Builder
08-20-2007, 08:43 AM
Thanks for the very informative thread and congratulations on your new boat.

jenkinsph
08-20-2007, 10:04 AM
Great reading Kerno, will you be trailering the boat to the West Coast yourself? Good Luck getting the boat home.



Steve

kitebuz
08-20-2007, 10:37 AM
Cool thread & thanks for taking the time to share your findings and detailed real world reporting. Sounds like you found the right boat for your needs. You're right - it's just interesting boat related reading for those of us not currently in the market. It also gives an idea as to what direction the latest & greatest are going.

Just curious - did you consider the new Contender 33T or 31T?

The B-31 sounds like a great new entry. I do wish they had gone with a flush deck.

What sort of performance did you see with your Jupiter & the F225's? That is one of my favorite used market boats right now.

kerno
08-20-2007, 11:00 AM
kitebuz - 8/21/2007 7:37 AM

Just curious - did you consider the new Contender 33T or 31T?

What sort of performance did you see with your Jupiter & the F225's? That is one of my favorite used market boats right now.

Yes, I absolutely considered the 33T and was on one a couple months ago. There were a couple things that made it a problem. First, the head is really a compromise. it is there, but if you've ever tried to do the lifting front thing anchored in the chop, you'll know how tough it can be. A lot of people have asked why I am concerned about the head, saying you just go over the side. When you dive where there are sharks that prey on marine mammals and are very keen on mammal urine, it is not a good idea to pee in the water and then jump in. I also what put off by the slab of wood in the anchor locker. I suspect that will or may have changed.

I was frankly surprised at how well the boat did with the F225's. They are not an engine that I set out to buy and when I looked at the boat, I said to myself "time to re-power". But they worked and they have fairly low hours. I had a set on my Jupiter and am still very annoyed that Yamaha ordered decals that said 225 instead of 208. So, I have not made up my mind if they are leaving or not. It is hard to justify the dollars when they do work and give reasonable mileage. The cost of a repower buys a whole bunch of fuel. I have to also be concerned about the service availability on Maui. I don't think that the local dealer, who does sell Mercury, is Verado certified. He does not sell Yamaha or Suzuki. Since mercury sold the F225's painted black, I know he has parts catalogs and service data for them. The most popular engine in Hawaii seems to be Hondas, and that is a possibility. It would probably be the world's only Honda powered Venture. I know if it works with the Yamaha 208's, it will work just fine with the Honda 225's and they also seem to tolerate E-10 pretty well.

scott
08-20-2007, 11:20 AM
Congrats on the new boat. I am wondering with diving being your main focus why did you not go with a side door style of boat like the Intrepid? I am not a diver but always thought if I was that would be a great asset to have.

kitebuz
08-20-2007, 12:24 PM
I don't know, but the Merc 300 Opti's might give you some of your best mileage #'s vs the Honda on your Venture.

But, like you say, if it it works - why fix it.

flats392
08-20-2007, 12:36 PM
kerno - 8/20/2007 12:37 AM

Additionally, you've said "a pair of gas guzzling black 4-strokes....." Please, kind sir, tell me what engines out there consume less fuel. Name, date, time, water conditions and multiple rpm points, please. You'll note that I did not buy a boat with black engines and that neither my last boat or the one before had black engines. The last one that did was my 25 Parker (see below} But based on what I recorded, I have to ask what out there does better than the 2008 Verado 300s on a large boat. I have the opportunity to repower the boat before I ship it, so if there is something I missed or got wrong, please don't hesitate to set me right. You are cordially invited to spend a week looking at how the engines are built and running them, followed by posting a thread with the results. NO factory or published numbers, but the numbers you actually got when you were on the boat. I'll be sure to read it and understand the point.


SUZUKI 300'S................

lcosta01
08-20-2007, 01:50 PM
Kern, I just spoke with the captain of that boat, which is the person that took you out for the ride.

The boat had just been delivered, and they were playing with the height position of the engines. I believe they raised the engines to the height of the engines of the black boat, and it didn't work for that particular boat. He told me the boat was getting some air under, which didn't make the for the true ride of the boat. They re-adjusted the height and he told me they got almost 60 MPH(59.something to be exact), and with a little bit of prop work, they should be in the 60s, with an almost-full load.

The Black boat was up in the DC area for a demonstration. If you have any questions feel free to ask.

JB03
08-20-2007, 02:29 PM
lcosta01 - 8/20/2007 1:50 PM

Kern, I just spoke with the captain of that boat, which is the person that took you out for the ride.

The boat had just been delivered, and they were playing with the height position of the engines. I believe they raised the engines to the height of the engines of the black boat, and it didn't work for that particular boat. He told me the boat was getting some air under, which didn't make the for the true ride of the boat. They re-adjusted the height and he told me they got almost 60 MPH(59.something to be exact), and with a little bit of prop work, they should be in the 60s, with an almost-full load.

The Black boat was up in the DC area for a demonstration. If you have any questions feel free to ask.

With all the hype regarding speed, economy, ride, etc... of the Invincible's posted all over the Internet, why on earth would a sea trial be arranged on a boat that does not come anywhere near the performance represented on many forums?

I was very impressed with those figures posted and I was under the impression that was for the standard boat. I did not realize it was specifically set up for speed with lab finished props and such . Would the boat that Kerno tested be considered Invincible's base 33?

lcosta01
08-20-2007, 03:35 PM
The boat Kern rode was a private boat. The owner wanted to play with engine heights to see what would happen. The boat reacted negatively. The boat got a lot of air under it, so the speed and ride suffered. They sent the boat back to the factory to put them in their original position. Capt. Luis, the captain of the boat Kern rode, told me they got it to 59something with a VERY heavy load. If they decide to play with the props, they will get more. The props were the stock 4-bladed Mercs. This boat has A LOT of options that the avergae boater would not get.

The other boat which I rode, the black one, was with the same props. It was the standard boat with key west hard-top, and electronics.

Capt. Luis and his boss were kind enough to do Invincible a favor and give Kern a ride. The all black boat was in a demonstration in DC.

Lazy Bones
08-20-2007, 04:12 PM
lcosta01 - 8/20/2007 3:35 PM

This boat has A LOT of options that the avergae boater would not get.

I am a fan of the boat so don't take this teh wrong way.

What are all of the "options" that most people wouldn't get?

Open array? I am more surprised by someone who doesn't get OA when spending that much money?

Poly carbonate windshield? No more drag than a plexi or Eizenglass panel.

Fresh water washdown? No way would I own a boat w/o it.

Satallite TV? That I will give you as excessive.

I can see there being a diffence in the hull construction. How much weight does the solid bottom add? Is this the first boat w/o a cored hull?

I would just like to hear how the boat is decked out. I still think that the speed numbers are fine. I am a little disappointed in the increased fuel burn though.

WildLines
08-20-2007, 04:20 PM
Lcosa1 -

Are you part owner or investor in the Invincible Corporation?

You seem to go above and beyond just brand loyalty to defend the Invicilble. ;?

kerno
08-20-2007, 04:34 PM
scott - 8/21/2007 8:20 AM

Congrats on the new boat. I am wondering with diving being your main focus why did you not go with a side door style of boat like the Intrepid? I am not a diver but always thought if I was that would be a great asset to have.

Scott: The first boat I demo'd and the first plant I went through was Intrepid. I've looked at the dive door as well and thought that a deck level entry would be nice. The door may be good for casual usage, but it has a couple of problems for any serious use. A good dive ladder has a "T" rung on the bottom so you can land on it with fins on. Once you take the fins off, your arms are your only source of propulsion. Ideally, you climb on the ladder with both fins on, take 'em off one at a time and toss them in the boat. it is nice to do that with no more than your chest out of the water. But the door on the intrepid has a solid back wall, so you fins have to be off when you get to it. I figured on adding another piece that would flip down and serve as that "T", but once I climbed on a door, I realized that the only thing holding it in the open position is a section of rope (or line, if you please). That section of line lets the door move quite a bit as you put weight on it. I weigh 200 pounds, add full gear and I'd be presenting 280 pounds to the door. That's fine in calm water, but once the boat is pitching the inertial load goes up a whole bunch. If something breaks, the factory is 6000 miles away.

The other problem is the one of injury. When the boat is pitching in the chop a ladder with rounded edges and smooth corners looks a lot friendlier than the door. I think the door would be well suited for getting in the water, but a conventional ladder would be required to get out. The transom door is narrow and the rear "swimsteps" are not wide enough to attach a ladder which needs to be at least 22 inch wide, so I'd have to do some interesting customizing to make it work.

With that said, I have to say that I liked the build quality of the Intrepid well enough that I did make an offer on one.

lcosta01
08-20-2007, 05:11 PM
LB, to be honest, I don't know the full extent of the options. The one that stands out the most is the really big windlass. Personally, I find an OA on a CC ineffective because of where it sits in height and the ocean. Radars need to be high, and no matter how high you go in a CC, it's usually not high enough to be very effective. I just remember the captain saying there was a lot of useless options. I will try to get you a complete list of options. I do not remember the exact amount of weight the solid bottom adds. I want to say 500, but don't quote me on it. Freshwater washdown is a must, I agree.

WL, no I am not an owner or investor. I have always been loyal to the people that do business with me and vice versa. I am just as passionate about Cabo, Porsche, etc. I was just clearing up some things that were being said. I don't like for people to be misinformed, and if I can attempt to clear some things and help people understand something, I will do it to my best abilities.

Sal4
08-20-2007, 05:41 PM
All those options should not change performance so drastically. I just purchased a 35 footer with all those options plus a much larger consol, and t-top than other similar ones made. With twins my boat runs within 1mph of next boat down the line who did not put on all of that extra stuff. When you buy a boat you should expect some deviations but not excessive ones. Expectations need to be clear and realistic.

Lazy Bones - 8/20/2007 4:12 PM

lcosta01 - 8/20/2007 3:35 PM

This boat has A LOT of options that the avergae boater would not get.

I am a fan of the boat so don't take this teh wrong way.

What are all of the "options" that most people wouldn't get?

Open array? I am more surprised by someone who doesn't get OA when spending that much money?

Poly carbonate windshield? No more drag than a plexi or Eizenglass panel.

Fresh water washdown? No way would I own a boat w/o it.

Satallite TV? That I will give you as excessive.

I can see there being a diffence in the hull construction. How much weight does the solid bottom add? Is this the first boat w/o a cored hull?

I would just like to hear how the boat is decked out. I still think that the speed numbers are fine. I am a little disappointed in the increased fuel burn though.
;?

lcosta01
08-20-2007, 07:31 PM
Again, that boat Kern rode was playing with engine height adjustments. They asked Invincible to play with the engines' positions. I am not a physics or engineer major, but I would guess that, that would make a significant difference in how a boat behaves. Would you agree?

I'm just relaying what I was told by the captain. Once they put it back where they go, the boat hit 60 MPH...(59.6 to be exact). The black boat, which I took to 64.4 MPH was up in DC. They ran the exact same boat I did, but with the cooler temperature they hit 66. Go figure.

Mr. Demeanor
08-20-2007, 09:27 PM
Ok ok ok....we get it. He rode the slowest one built. Just bad luck on his part. Its just second and third hand information vs. first hand experience.

gottail?
08-20-2007, 10:16 PM
kerno - 8/20/2007 4:34 PM

With that said, I have to say that I liked the build quality of the Intrepid well enough that I did make an offer on one.

Nice to see that you have come around on the Intrepids from past posts, Since you offered on one and the deal did not go through, I can only assume your offer did not meet the sellers expectactions? Regardless of that you bought a quality boat and you will get excellent usage out of her. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

But please call a spade a spade: The Intrepid has a transom door too and you could install a custom dive ladder on it just like your other boats for rough seas. The only real problem was they probably would not discount near as much as the used Venture seller would? Right? The 323 is much smaller than a 34 Venture is but a 35 Intrepid, even used would cost much more! One thing is for sure though, the 31 Bahama is an awesome beast, but an expensive one at that! ;)

Lazy Bones
08-20-2007, 10:46 PM
gottail? - 8/20/2007 10:16 PM

But please call a spade a spade: The Intrepid has a transom door too and you could install a custom dive ladder on it just like your other boats for rough seas. The only real problem was they probably would not discount near as much as the used Venture seller would? Right? The 323 is much smaller than a 34 Venture is but a 35 Intrepid, even used would cost much more! One thing is for sure though, the 31 Bahama is an awesome beast, but an expensive one at that! ;)

Don't take it personally just because you've ordered an intrepid. He had a pretty well-based reason why the door didn't meet his rough water needs. Sounds like if he had bought the Intrepid that he would have gone on and installed a transome ladder.

Take a look at his ladders. Now how would they go on the door? On the inside and when the door is closed he'd have an aluminum Christmas tree sticking up grabbing people.

The Intrepid is a great boat, but it doesn't fit everyone's needs.

Edit - gottail? - I am not trying to be argumentative, just pointing out why I don't think it as simple as bolting a ladder to the side door.

Buck Wild
08-21-2007, 09:22 AM
Sorry but that is just a lot of excuses for that much difference in fuel numbers. A lot, if not most, of these big CC have open arrays and yes they are very useful. As much as a big sportfisher, no.

In the future, I would make sure to use a boat that is 'proven' to give demo rides. Not one that has wrong props, motors to high, a T-top, fresh water washdown, a console, leaning post, electronics, open array, or even much fuel. This will give the potential owner a real look and feel of how the boat will perform under their own use. Not sure who is at fault, but good chance that cost Invincible a sale.

Auburn1
08-21-2007, 09:31 AM
kerno - 8/20/2007 1:37 AM
I think my numbers clearly show that all the boats do NOT burn roughly the same amount of fuel within a "few gallon tenths per hour", even with identical engines.

All of these boats are in the same performance category and are all designed/built/marketed/sold with speed as a primary attribute. Verados the same. The performance/fuel burn disparities you experienced are due mostly to differences in conditions, curtains, loading, props, driver, etc etc...no way you can make everything equal. Example, look what a heavy load and non-coring did to the Invincible, which has already been shown to be the most efficient and fastest of the stepped hulls under its "favorite" test conditions. If you could make it all equal then you would find that they all perform within earshot of each other, certainly within "negligible" when you consider the cost of the machine and how important having the right features is...in your case, being dive-friendly. Sure, this is great info for board discussion, what I've observed is that the people that care most about 78mph vs 74 and 58gph vs 52 are the people that aren't even in the market for such boats. I was only questioning your prioroities since it seemed (in fact you stated) that you're not interested in speed and you dive a lot. If it was me I would favor a stable dive platform, possibly an I/B like Whitewater or SeaVee over heavy-HP Verados. Nothing beats the economy and accessibility of an I/B and with a Whitewater or SeaVee you get a high-end CC made right here in Miami.

lcosta01
08-21-2007, 09:44 AM
Buck Wild - 8/21/2007 9:22 AM

In the future, I would make sure to use a boat that is 'proven' to give demo rides. Not one that has wrong props, motors to high, a T-top, fresh water washdown, a console, leaning post, electronics, open array, or even much fuel. This will give the potential owner a real look and feel of how the boat will perform under their own use. Not sure who is at fault, but good chance that cost Invincible a sale.

They were doing Invincible a favor. I guess it would have been better to not give the guy a ride at all. :roll And Buck, for your knowledge, the boat I sea trialed had a key west hard-top, fresh water, a console, a SeaVee type leaning post(big one), electronics, 150+ of fuel, and 6 people.

Only in South Florida can a person's good intentions be skewed. Typical. :thumbsup:

JB03
08-21-2007, 10:13 AM
lcosta01 - 8/21/2007 9:44 AM


Only in South Florida can a person's good intentions be skewed. Typical. :thumbsup:

The only thing that is skewed are the performance numbers. After reading the posts about the 33 Invincible getting 2 MPG at cruise, I would have also been disappointed. I guess when one sets up a sea trial, they need to ask specifically for the one that gets 2 MPG. All the talk about the additional options being the reason for the decreased performance is just nonsense. I could understand it if the boat had a 1,000 LB generator. I also understand the coring of the boat would have some impact. But a radar, a windshield, and windlass? Are you serious?

captainkevin
08-21-2007, 10:20 AM
I sold my 36 Yellowfin to an out of state buyer that added a Tower, he told me the top speed is the same or within 1 mph at most. I have not run it with the tower but see little reason it would change much so I will take his word its true. But take off the windshield & I bet it picks up speed.

Weight in the bow will slow these boats down & cause fuel burn to increase keep the Yellowfin on the pad & it runs better while burning less fuel. I would even keep my fish in the transom area in fish bags. My props were cupped to help my cruise speed but slowed top speed 1-2 mph same thing happened with my new boat but less cavatition better bite better fuel burn numbers. So I understand the speed differences playing with motor height & props.

lcosta01
08-21-2007, 10:25 AM
I never mentioned that the boat slowed down because of those things: radar, windshield, and windlass. I mentioned that the windlass is huge weighs a lot, and it is one of the options the average boater would not opt for. If anyone would like to speak with the captain of that boat send me PM. He told me he would love to speak with anyone on this.

Now, if anyone can please show me where I said that a windshield, radar, etc. slows down a boat. I just said they were useless options, IMO. EDIT: The windshield is not that useless, but I'd go with the eisenglass. I'm done with this thread. I can now see why others are leaving this forum.

When I get my boat, I will be delighted and honored to take anyone out for a spin. Will I play with the props? Of course, just like most people do, but I will not play with engine positions, and other things that can hinder performance.

kurtiss
08-21-2007, 03:54 PM
Kerno - Congratulations on the Venture. That should be an awesome dive boat. Who makes the ladder that was on your Jupiter? Is it a manufacturer, or is it a custom? Thanks for the info!

CAD_man
08-21-2007, 05:00 PM
Lcosta01, below is what you typed. By reading that it is implying to me that this boat has all these options that make the boat run slower and perform at 1/2 of what has been posted in the forms. You then go and say that the one thing that comes to mind is the windlass. Are you serious? Look at Hydrasport, Donzi and Intrepis they all have windlass. Most CCs in that size range put radar on their boats and I see a lot of boats with open arrays in that size. I am just as surprised as everyone else on the numbers posted on this boat and makes you wonder.

Kerno, that is my buddy's boat. I can see why you experienced those numbers. As you saw, that boat has SOOOOOO many silly gadgets. That boat was not expected to run very hard, because of all the crap is has. You'd be amazed at what it has.
Hammer is right. Kerno wasn't looking for top speed. He got what was best for him.

sarzach
08-21-2007, 06:54 PM
Guys, this has really turned stupid, Kerno, please post your fuel burns for the boat you PURCHASED. Please let us know how much fuel was in it. Size of the top (hard or soft) radar if any, ising glass? bells and whistles. Kerno saw what he saw on his test drive. That boat is not our standard as I think a lot of people know friends that have put EVERY gadget known to man on their boats, this was one of them. No big deal. I'd be happy to give him another test ride but why? I still believe that our standard boat with the same amount of fuel, same size top, same radar will be better on fuel than any of the boats in it's class.

Let me also state this, our boat is NOT a dive boat and that's OK, I harbor no hard feelings toward him for making another company his choice. If there was one boat out there that fit everyone's needs perfectly than everyone else would go out of business and there wouldn't be a need for this forum.

Smile, it gives your face something to do :)

Hammer

Captain John
08-21-2007, 07:33 PM
Kerno, thanks for your honest assessments. The first two pages of this thread reminded me of the way this forum used to be in the beginning. Congradulations on a well informed decision on a wonderful boat that meets your requirements.

kerno
08-21-2007, 09:12 PM
This thread is going two directions at the moment. So, while the Invincible battle rages on, I'm going back to the question of why I bought what I did.


gottail? - 8/21/2007 7:16 PM

Nice to see that you have come around on the Intrepids from past posts.

But please call a spade a spade: The Intrepid has a transom door too and you could install a custom dive ladder on it just like your other boats for rough seas. The only real problem was they probably would not discount near as much as the used Venture seller would? Right?

No, not right. First off, I don't believe I've ever knocked the Intrepids. If so, please consider this my admission that I've come to my senses.

About the transom door. Below are pictures of two transom doors. One is the Venture and the other is the Intrepid that I was close to buying. You tell me which one you want to walk trough with dive gear on. You can clearly see the size of the Intrepid's swim step. it looks the same on both the 300 and the 323. It is a fiberglass section attached to the hull. I'd use the phrase "bolted on", but it doesn't sound as classy as "attached". That step is simply too narrow for a 22 inch wide ladder, since it has barely room for my size 13 feet.

Another thing that really hurt the Intrepid was the lack of a decent place to rack up at least 8 tanks, preferably 12 and still be able to find a place for 4 divers to stow their gear and suit up. The Intrepid has lots of tricks like the electric sliding console door and the adjustable leaning post. Those are fun for their "wow" factor. But his is also a dive boat. We anchor, go in the water and come back to the boat. But the anchor locker is barely big enough to hold your lunch. What it WON'T do is hold 300 feet of 9/16 line and 40 feet of 5/16 chain, which is what I've found is needed to have a boat to come back to after the dive. I've had to swim after the boat three times and I'm getting tired of it. Intrepid says the locker holds 200 feet of 1/2"line. I agree if it is coiled very carefully. The windlass they install that fits the mounting pad is for 1/4 chain. That's too small for my usage.

As to the issue of price: I offered 80 percent of the asking price on the Intrepid. The seller's counter offer on the Intrepid was 82 percent. We obviously could have come to terms had the boat met my requirements as well as the Venture. You may be amazed to hear that I paid 95.4 percent of the asking price of the Venture, so it was not the discount that made the sale. My initial offer was 13 percent below the asking price.

In the final analysis, it was the best match of size, utility, ride, quality and value that made the sale.

kurtiss - 8/22/2007 12:54 PM
Who makes the ladder that was on your Jupiter? Is it a manufacturer, or is it a custom? Thanks for the info!

I bought the material from Taco Metals and had them welded up. Specialty Aluminum Works in Texas will make them and ship them to you (361) 575-1467

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n114/kern-o/FLLAug07141.jpg

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n114/kern-o/FLLAug07108.jpg

przing
08-21-2007, 10:44 PM
Kerno,
just curious, did you buy from a dealer or private?

kerno
08-22-2007, 12:49 AM
I bought the boat from Henley, in Jupiter, Florida. I had gone up there to trial the Bahama 31, but in spite of how well the Bahama performed I have a problem with Hawaii and an 11 foot beam. I don't mind it so much if the boat doesn't look 11 feet wide, but when you come up behind a Bahama 31 you know it has a lot of beam. The limit in Hawaii is 10 feet and the Venture is 10 feet. I never had a problem with my Stamas at 10'6", but it was only about 10 at the transom and just did not look as beamy as the Bahama.

Back to the dealer or private issue, it does not really matter to me because a warranty is not of much value if the boat is 6000 miles away. I have warranty service for engines available, but the hull is a different issue. It is important to buy something that will stay together

gayleforce
08-22-2007, 01:04 AM
Kern, did you ever consider going into politics? Tom R.

11andy11
08-22-2007, 02:04 AM
Dang, this thread gave me a knarly headache. Props to getting the welding done by SAW. I am right down the rode from them.

oceandweller71
08-22-2007, 04:06 PM
Kerno, good reports.

Let me preface this by saying that I dont participate in alot of this back and forth but I have to chime in. I am not an owner of an invincible but I can tell you that Kerno the numbers that you posted on the Invincible are not even close to what I saw yesterday. The boat easily cruised at 26MPH on plane, and furthermore at 40PMPH was burning between 19-20 Gallons (2MPG). Furthermore at 50MPH it was still well into the 1.3 to 1.4 MPG range. This boat was not laoded but was fully rigged.

gottail?
08-22-2007, 08:37 PM
I started with a complement and truly intended it! A year or two ago I took some posts you made as a slight of Intrepid.

I agree witht the purchase you made for your needs! :) The Venture is a top of the line first class center console. I just wonder what would have happened if the Intrepid seller took your offer? Then you would be on my side of the fence? With the custom ladder arrangement you install, I think the transome door for either would suffice. my only real observation is that comparing a 32' boat with a 9' 6" beam to a 34' with 10' beam is a no brainer when they are both quality. Intrepid makes a heck of a 35' that could be super customized but the price of admission is that much more. I think you timed the market well but the thread started off as a performance thread aimed at the shortfall of the Invincable but ended with a much more modestly powered used boat? I just jumped in because I feel strongly about one of your final 5 and the market where I live and you shopped is pretty strong for them. Oh, I also drive by Venture's factory once a week on my way to a clients office. I am always interested to see what is out front getting ready for delivery! :thumbsup:

Use her in good health and the next time you are shopping I'll be happy to demo a first class Intrepid and let you make a dive on a super reef I know about!

Got Tail

ufg8rmike
08-22-2007, 08:54 PM
Kerno...I am a diver and also in the market for a similar vessel in the 32-33ft range How do you plan on mounting all your tanks in a large center console? My initial focus was placed on the 32 yellowfin with twin 300 suzuki's but lately I've been moving more towards the 33ft World Cat or a inboard diesel such as albemarle, mainly because they are much more diver friendly.

I've seen the roll control tank racks but they will not work well on a CC with 3 piece construction and high freeboard.

kerno
08-22-2007, 11:54 PM
I've used the roll control system with great success on my last 3 boats and plan on using it on the new one. I usually mount it directly to the area where the coaming bolsters are attached by using a simple aluminum plate to mount it below the coaming bolsters. Here's how it works. Take a piece of aluminum about 1/4 x 3 x 4. Attach it to the back side of the fiberglass so it hangs down about an inch and a half below the bolsters. Then attach the roll control track to the aluminum. A couple diagonal braces that can run up to the rod holder screws help stiffen it. Unfortunately I don't think I have any decent pictures to help out.

Take a look at the Renaissance Prowler if you are in the cat market. World Cat's failure to use vinylester resins would make me seek another manufacturer.

ufg8rmike
08-23-2007, 07:59 AM
kerno - 8/22/2007 11:54 PM

I've used the roll control system with great success on my last 3 boats and plan on using it on the new one. I usually mount it directly to the area where the coaming bolsters are attached by using a simple aluminum plate to mount it below the coaming bolsters. Here's how it works. Take a piece of aluminum about 1/4 x 3 x 4. Attach it to the back side of the fiberglass so it hangs down about an inch and a half below the bolsters. Then attach the roll control track to the aluminum. A couple diagonal braces that can run up to the rod holder screws help stiffen it. Unfortunately I don't think I have any decent pictures to help out.

Take a look at the Renaissance Prowler if you are in the cat market. World Cat's failure to use vinylester resins would make me seek another manufacturer.

Great advise...I'd love to see pics when you get done w the new boat. I've also though twice on the world cat. A friend has a 270 with many spider cracks and we just found that no backing plates were used to mount the huge center dive platfrom and ladder!! (hell they didnt even use bolts, just srewed into the fiberglass. This was discovered a couple days ago as the 3 screws backed out of one side. It's such a great dive boat though, and rides awful nice.

Diveocean
08-26-2007, 11:22 PM
you should talk to scott at henley marine...I own a Bahama 31 with twin suzuki 300 and have tank racks for 20 tanks and six spear guns and still get 46 knots pretty wild set up.. He can give you more details.

ufg8rmike
08-27-2007, 01:42 PM
Diveocean - 8/26/2007 11:22 PM

you should talk to scott at henley marine...I own a Bahama 31 with twin suzuki 300 and have tank racks for 20 tanks and six spear guns and still get 46 knots pretty wild set up.. He can give you more details.

Any pics of your set-up?

svendsenjoel
08-27-2007, 02:04 PM
Do you think your friend's World Cat 270 dive platform that was installed without backing plates might have been dealer installed rather than factory installed?

svendsenjoel
08-27-2007, 02:25 PM
Inboard boats are indeed generally more diver friendly. I've had four inboard boats for diving, and the combination of a big open cockpit and clean transom works very well. The only tank rack that I use is one that lies flat on the deck for loose tanks. Tanks which are rigged in BC's, or double tanks, just lay flat on the deck and generally stay put. For example:



http://www.miamiwreck.org/stuff/cockpit.jpg

That is 6 sets of doubles, plus numerous single tanks, a lot of gear to fit in a 29 foot boat.

I completely understand that move towards outboard boats, however. My next dive boat will probably be a big outboard center console. Diesel inboards work well; I've had three boats with diesel inboards and they all worked very well, but they are very expensive. This boat (Tiara 29) has gas inboards, and that is a never again for me. Lots of headaches, and very limited range with high fuel consumption and only 200 gallons of fuel.

The key to a nice boat for diving is a wide beam; that makes fitting the gear so much easier. If the beam is narrow, then not only can you fit much less in the cockpit, but putting stuff forward of the cockpit on a center console boat becomes a problem if the walkways are narrow. Nothing fits well, you are tripping over everything, etc. My Tiara has an 11'4"" beam...I don't think you can find a 29 foot center console with outboards that is anywhere near that wide, but it's worth trying to get at least to a 10ft beam if you can.

ufg8rmike
08-27-2007, 05:26 PM
svendsenjoel - 8/27/2007 2:04 PM

Do you think your friend's World Cat 270 dive platform that was installed without backing plates might have been dealer installed rather than factory installed?

I don't belive so...he had to cut out lots of foam for access and the foam didn't look like it was altered in any way or re-sprayed. We are installing SS backing plates tomorrow.

doctodd
10-30-2007, 10:47 PM
sorry to resurrect this thread kerno, but i think you mentioned that you didnt want a boat with Kevlar due to the flexibility it lacks....so you bought a Venture i think. And i just happened to read in the Venture program i got from the lauderdale boat show that they make their boat with....you guessed it....Kevlar. Just wanted to know what you didnt like about the Kevlar since im interested in a boat with Kevlar due to the lighter weight(which the Venutre isnt really light, so it is kinda ironic).

thx

T



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