The Boating Forum - Mercury 60 Four Stroke vs. Yamaha 60 Four Stroke
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05-17-2003, 10:10 PM
First time posting, and could really use some help. Just ordered boat and trying to decide
between Mercury 60 Four strokes and Yamaha 60
four strokes. Yammies are 2k more for twins.
Are they worth the extra $. Plan on keeping boat
for loooong time.Don't mind paying extra 2k if
Yammies will outperform over the long run.Would
appreciate any helpful info. Really enjoy reading
the forums. Thanks in advance.
05-17-2003, 10:37 PM
Hope someone will back me up one this, but all indications are the Mercs are Yamahas with a black cover ... in other words the Mercs are made by Yamaha, just like the Johnson 4 strokes are made by Suzuki.
Get In! Sit Down! Shut Up! Hold On!
05-17-2003, 11:13 PM
I think fishin-fanatic may very well be right. At the least, I think the Merc 4-stroke is a Yam up top and possibly a Merc lower unit. Someone with more definite knowledge will hopefully chime in. What boat did you order?
05-17-2003, 11:37 PM
Merc & Yam may have gone their separate ways on the 60 Hp 4 stroke from yr2002 or 2003 engines - could be wrong tho - you could easily tell probably bye comparing their respective spec sheets (bore & stroke) from the web sites most likely.
Don't merc n yam use a different injection system from each other?
i.e. Merc bought the sarich orbital technologys digital low pressure injection technology while Yam went with HPDI.?
Is this the difference?
i.e - is the block still Yam while the injection mechanics varies between the two as does the merc leg with bigfoot options etc?
I would imagine this may be what your looking at.
For what it's worth, I believe Mercs using the Sarich Orbital technologies injection mechamism to be better than YAMS HPDI - yet both are undoubtedly good & reliable.
I beleive Merc to make the better lower units - and also have the bigfoot options available.
Yam may have better customer service than Merc.
So - there you go - your between the devil and the deep blue sea.
For what it's worth, a Maori girl once told me - "Once you've had black - you'll never go back" and I assumed she was talking about Merc And Yam OB engines!! http://thehulltruth.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://thehulltruth.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
05-18-2003, 01:36 AM
I am not sure who makes what on those two motors, but the biggest diference that I see is that the Mercury has EFI and the Yamaha has carbs.
I also thought that except for the 225, they just shared blocks. That is quite a bit different than the Suzuki - Johnson relationship.
05-18-2003, 08:13 AM
Why don't you just get one 115 yamaha? Two engines mean twice the problems. What are you putting twin 60's on?
05-18-2003, 08:16 AM
They share a block, BUT.
The Merc has EFI, the Yamaha is carbed.
An entire generation of technology difference.
Red sky at night. . .
05-18-2003, 08:23 AM
Buying a 20 ft. Twin vee. Have 2 boats, and trying
to find one boat that can fish lakes, bays, and
near shore on good days. I know you can't find
one boat to do it all, but after much research
Twin Vee 20 is what I found. They don't recommend
single engine----but twins.
05-18-2003, 08:42 AM
That makes sense.
Do you think twin 60's will be enough horses for the 20 ft Twin V cat boat?
I woulda thought it might handle say twin 100's?
Of course if speed isn't a concern and fuel economy (and initial purchase price) are considerations - then twin 60's should be OK.
I think Bro in laws 19 ft monohull had a single 140, and he felt it could do with more horses in some cases (like a following sea where it'd fall off the back of the swell all the time).
Sometimes these cats are a whisker heavier than a mono - and need more horses, and if 140 wasn't quite enough on 19ft of mono - I have some "reservations" about total 120 horses (twin 60's) being sufficient HP for a 20 ft Twin v.
I guess it might, but you know how it is - sometimes more horses used more sparingly is actually more fuel efficient than fewer horses worked hard all the time.
Say you wan't to plane home on one engine - is a 60 4 stroke Merc going to plane 20 ft of twin V cat?
I'd think thru your power options carefully - sometimes dealers want to sell you an underpowered boat to make the total package cost look cheaper / more affordable, knowing that once you have a year or so in using the boat and have added a couple fishing buddies and all sorts of gear extra fuel etc - that you'll be back wanting to buy two new larger engines - in which case - the dealer wins again.
Better IMHO to get enough horses at the get go - and the selections in 100HP range might give you a clearer choice between one or another brand maybe.
Whats the Max HP rating on a 20ft twin V ?
Just food for thought!
05-18-2003, 11:00 AM
The max horsies on the Twin Vee 20 is 140, twin 60's should work well, the main consideration when buying mercs or yammies is the dealer support.is the dealer nearby and helpful?? are they factory trained?? is there parts support??really an issue when the bugs appear..both motors will work well, I prefer fuel injection, I think they are both injected actually, I have a twin vee 19 and am thinking of moving up to a 20 soon, while the 20 is no speed demon, the thing to consider is "usable speed". On flat calm days 40 is nice, here on the chesapeake, 20mph is more typical and fast enough for me, fuel mileage is becoming more of an issue also, I get between 4 and 5 mpg, suzuki 115, I have not talked to a single 20 owner that complained of low top speed, just reports of dry comfortable ride 30 miles offshore...good luck..Mic
05-18-2003, 11:17 AM
JBCornwell has it right: the Yam is carburated, the Merc is injected - other than that, the mechanical differences are negligible.
05-18-2003, 12:08 PM
I wanted to go with twin 70's to max out HP,
but in checking out manufactuers, Suzuki was only
one to have 70's. The weight of their 60 & 70
are the same, and they are about 100 lbs heavier
than either Mercury or Yamaha. With twins, that
is 200 pounds more on transom. Hopefully the
twin 60 Mercs or Yamahas at the lesser weight
will even out with heavier twin Suzuki 70's.
The dealer told me he has had a Twin Vee 20
with Mercury twin 60's run 40-41 mph. I'm not
in to speed, but I don't mind a little extra
when it is time to go to the house when bad
weather is approaching.
From the much valued info from you guys, it
looks like the extra 2k the Yammies would cost
would be better spent on electronics,etc. There
doesn't seem that there is alot of difference
between the Yammies & Mercs, but the Mercs have
fuel injection and a 2k savings. The dealer did
tell me that the 2 K difference was mostly in
the gauges and twin engine rigging. I really
appreciate the info, this is a great board. I'm
sure I'll have more questions later. Thanks
again from up here in rainy north Georgia.
05-18-2003, 12:15 PM
If you decide to go with the Mercs, maybe do a search on here for smartcraft gauges...I seem to remember a thread with some potential problems with twin rigs running the smartcraft gauges, can't remember all the details, something about 2 new engines and one would accept the smartcraft and one wouldn't or something.
Anyway - check into it - you don't wanna strike the sanme problem this poor bugger had.
I think from memor - while they were bioth new engines - one came off the assembly line a fair while before the other, and hadn't been assembled to take the new digital guages or something.
05-18-2003, 12:59 PM
I currently own the Yamaha 60 hp Enduro. That is by far the best motor I have ever owned. I would think that the 4 stroke would only be better.
Maybe with minimum fuel and one person and no t-top. I do have a friend who has a Merc 60 4-stroke and he loves it, says it puts out a good amount of power. Twin Vees with twin Honda 50s (less cubin inches, less power) only get low 30s WOT. It is hard to beleive a jump of 20 total HP will get you 8 to 10 more miles per hour. If the dealer has rigged these before, ask for the name of an owner you can contact. If you are not stuck on a 4-stroke, the Nissan/Tohatsu TLDI 70 weighs more than the Merc 60, but less than the Suzuki 70. It has a good bit more cubic inches than the Merc 60 and has a 4-year warranty.
05-19-2003, 11:53 AM
I ran a Twin Vee 20 with twin (light, 231 lb) 2-stroke 70 HP Tohatsu's and WOT (with a t-top) is 36-37 MPH. I'd say 40-41 with the twin 60's ... even w/o t-top is a stretch.
You can not make the Twin Vee 20 a fast boat even with the lightest 2-stroke 70's.
I'm sure I'll hear the wrath for this, but I'd order is without motors and find someone that will install 90's for you. If you do, they'llhave to be light 90's like the carbed Yami or carbed Merc ... both around 250 lbs. And be ready to set up an auxillary fuel system, cause you're not going real far with standard fuel capacity of 36 gals. Range should be OK with the twin 60 4-strokes, though, but I can't imagine you'd have a WOT of over 33-35 MPH.
One last thing ... the ride is awesome.
Get In! Sit Down! Shut Up! Hold On!
05-19-2003, 12:16 PM
Timeout2, why not a Honda? Honda has been making the lower horsepower 4 strokes for years, Yamaha and Mercury are new to the 4 stroke world. I have the F225 Yamaha and absolutely love it! http://thehulltruth.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif As far as the Merc/Yammie issue, I would go with the Yamaha because I am partial. Partial, but hopefully not ignorant! http://thehulltruth.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Honda has built a 4 stroke for quite a while now and you will be hard pressed to find anything negative about them! Just an idea! http://thehulltruth.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
[This message was edited by Parker at the bar! on 05-19-03 at 02:27 PM.]
05-19-2003, 12:22 PM
Fishin-fanatic has got a point: that Yammie 90hp (2-stroke, carb) is one lightweight unit that delivers plenty of umph!!! On the downside, there's also the fuel consumption issue to consider...
05-19-2003, 04:23 PM
The speed and range will only come into play if you run relatively long distances by boat on a regular basis. I owned the Twin Vee 20 W/T-70's for 13 months and this was my experience: 90% of the time I ran @ 4300-4500 RPM's making 27-28 MPH and burning 9 GPH. With my standard fuel capacity of 36 G, this gave me a range of 4 hrs running or about 100 mi (leaving a small cushion). I never went faster cause it burned too much fuel. When it was very rough, I ran at about 3800 RPM's making 20-21 MPH.
I live on the water and a full tank was good for 3 trips when I fished near the house. But when we fished out of Venice, LA where long runs are common, or a ran to the barrier islands by boat, I brought an additional 40 G in twin 20 G fuel cells in front of each motor. This effectively doubled the range.
I did not upgrade from 70's to 90's for several reasons, but the cost ($5K) was the primary one. The next biggest reason is it exceeds the max recommended HP, the next was the added fuel consumption. In my opinion, the weight of the engines is the primary factor in max HP rating the Twin Vee 20. If you weight the transom down too much the scuppers go under and you no longer have a self-bailing boat.
If it can handle twin Suzi 70's 4-strokes @ 335 lbs each, it can handle the following 2-stroke motors:
Merc 90 carb @ 305 lbs
Yami 90 carb @ 261 lbs
Nissan 90 TLDI @ 314 lbs
Johnson 90 carb @ 335 lbs
Good Luck http://thehulltruth.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Get In! Sit Down! Shut Up! Hold On!
05-19-2003, 05:34 PM
The 19 is 95% the boat as the 20.
The 19 can run on one single engine with some much better #s all around. ( save you some money and have a go fast boat too! )
The ride is about the same.
Just have a leaner installed instead of the cooler seat thing.
05-19-2003, 06:22 PM
I think you're making a good decision shying away from heavier engines, and you might want to check out DIs. I doubt fuel economy will change much and you might save some weight.
"I have seen the death and calamity; the windstorm of chaos has engulfed me."
05-19-2003, 09:27 PM
Alot of good info from ya'll! If I go over the
max HP recommendation though, won't that void
any warranties by Twin Vee. Besides, the dealer
told me that the engines are installed at factory
(St. Lucie, Fl.) I doubt that they would install
anything over max HP recommendation. I had to
order boat, and I'm working on time constraints.
Boat will only be arriving a few days before
vacation at St. George. Right now order is with
twin 60 four stroke Mercs; I just need to make up
my mind PDQ if I'm going to change engines.
- Mercs 2k less than Yams
- Even if WOT is only 33-35mph range,probably
70-80% of time most boats are only running
60-80% of full throttle.
- Twin Vees known for running a little faster
in rough water than a lot of boats. (usable
speed as mentioned in above post.
- In a days fishing, I rarely run more than
50-70 miles, therefore the 60's will give me
good fuel efficiency and should not need
auxillary fuel tank.
- Merc is fuel injected, Yam is carb.
- Keeps fairly light engines on what is
considered a light boat.
- And last but not least, my wife says I
should go with the Mercs, so if they turn
out not to be what I thought, I can tell
her she made a bad choice and I need to
upgrade engines! Of course if I chose to
go with some other engines and they didn't
work out, I'd get the old " I told you so!"
Thanks again guys for all the input.
05-20-2003, 04:48 PM
The 2002 and newer 60 Merc is all Merc, no Yamaha what so ever. If it were me, I would go with the Mercs due to the lower cost, EFI, and the availability of SmartCraft.
05-21-2003, 04:59 AM
The Merc 60 4 stroke is 100% Merc. Some other models are mixes of the best of both, but the 40, 50, and 60 are new models with efi, and are good motors. Boy, I'd sure look into a boat that will run with a single 115, rather than twin 60's. If you're concerned about the safety of twins, hang a 9.9 alongside as a kicker. If your boat won't plane on one of the 60's, you lose the benefit of having twins, since you can't go any faster on one than a kicker would push you home. You're way ahead financially to have a larger single with a kicker. I don't believe the 60's come counter rotation, which is less concern with a cat, but I hope you've ridden in the boat in all conditions before you buy. Try drifting in fairly choppy seas.
05-21-2003, 05:34 AM
I keep hearing/reading all this Merc is a Yamaha, Yamaha is a Merc., HUH? I talked to a Yamaha tech. and he says the larger h.p. out boards do have similar or identical parts, but, Merc parts are not built by Yamaha or vice versa. Mercury uses a Yamaha powerhead, but it is basically a Yamaha powerhead BUILT by Mercury to Yamaha specs., it is not built by Yamaha. So whether that makes a difference or not to some, it does to me. If they start "swapping" parts, then which motor would we buy? Now you are going to tell me that my Yamaha is loaded with parts designed and built by Mercury and that's why Yamaha's have such a good reputation!? http://thehulltruth.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif If all this was true, you should be able to take your Merc or Yamaha to get serviced at the same place! When someone tells you to buy a Merc because it has Yamaha parts, why wouldn't you buy the Yamaha?
05-21-2003, 08:27 AM
Merc did have a "badge engineering" deal with yam for 4 stroke powerheads on these small 4 strokes right up to yr2002 I think.
I open the cowl on my black 50 Merc 4 stroke yr 2000 - and the head has the Yamaha 3 tuning forks symbol on it!!! http://thehulltruth.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I believe Merc now make their own 4 stroke powerhead as of yr 2003, with the EFI.
Merc undoubtedly make a better lower unit than Yam - I don't know many folks who think different.
Ask Yam for a bigfoot lower unit!!! http://thehulltruth.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
They all have their good and bad points, but i don't think he will go too far wrong with twin 60 EFI Mercs providing they have enough power for his hull.
05-21-2003, 11:04 AM
The current models of the Twin Vee 20 are not designed to be single engine boats. They tried it as a single engine boat and could not get the engines to "bite" in the water coming through the tunnel.
Here's what the boat looks like.
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