The Boating Forum - Startron Enzyme Treatment vs Stabil

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larryg631
10-11-2006, 09:20 PM
Was ready to buy Sta-bil for my boat and the guy at boaters world recomended Startron fuel treatment. I already use it to help with ethanol but didn't know it was also a stabalizer. It does say it will keep gas stabil for a year - anyone use it over the winter? I want to use which ever is better. Star tron costs less but I want what is best since I will treat 225 galloins.

Thanks

-Larry


Cooper
10-11-2006, 09:28 PM
I'm not taking any chances, so I'm putting both into my tank now. It's very likely that I won't be adding any more gas to my tank for at least 6 months.

RIP RYDER
10-11-2006, 09:33 PM
I doubled the amount of Sta-Bil in my tanks for the winter. That is what the Mass. Fire Marshal is suggesting, since it is illegal to leave boat fuel tanks empty during storage. One thing is for sure, We are all going to be happy or very very sad in the spring, when we get the results at start up.


BW23
10-11-2006, 09:34 PM
Ditto, both products for me .

:thumbsup:

Dae
10-11-2006, 09:50 PM
I'm using it to stabilize my gas. Why pay for something else when Startron will do it?? I'm going using it to stabilize my gas. All those Europeans that have been using it for years can't be wrong. BTW, Startron has been sold over in Europe for years now as Soltron.


- Dae

Onnawata
10-11-2006, 10:04 PM
I've used Soltron before, in a diesel engine sailboat - breaks down everything in the tank. Have to change filters a few times, but then everything in the fuel system is pure and clean.

O

flats cat
10-12-2006, 10:46 AM
Startron is the way to go with the new fuel!

chrisjb
10-12-2006, 12:11 PM
RIP RYDER - 10/11/2006 8:33 PM

I doubled the amount of Sta-Bil in my tanks for the winter. That is what the Mass. Fire Marshal is suggesting, since it is illegal to leave boat fuel tanks empty during storage.

Interresting point.

Onnawata
10-12-2006, 12:29 PM
Cooper - 10/11/2006 8:28 PM

I'm not taking any chances, so I'm putting both into my tank now. It's very likely that I won't be adding any more gas to my tank for at least 6 months.

Isn't that redundant?
Why use both? They do the same thing, don't they?
You may run the risk of the two interacting in some negative way.

O

Cooper
10-12-2006, 12:51 PM
I haven't had any negative interactions so far with using both, and I've been doing it for the past several weeks - maybe 50 gallons of gas. I figure that I've got $300 of gas in my tank. What's another $15-20 worth of extra (redundant) stabilizer? It would be far more time, trouble, and money to deal with a tank full of bad gas in the spring. When it starts getting cold and my days are limited, I'm going to dump an extra dose of each in the tank just to be safe.

Onnawata
10-12-2006, 01:15 PM
I don't know, just wondering out loud...
Instead of mixing them, why not double up on the one you trust most?

Megabyte
10-12-2006, 01:33 PM
Onnawata asked...
Instead of mixing them, why not double up on the one you trust most?

Maybe because no one really knows (yet) which product to trust the most with E10.
For many of us, E10 chemistry during winter storage is an unknown quantity...

I just put 90 gallons of fuel in my ride and dumped a bottle of StaBil (treats 80 gallons), 10 ounces of Startron, and 10 ounces of Ringfree in the tank.

I should be golden for the rest of the fishing season and the winter lay-up too. ;)

Onnawata
10-12-2006, 01:45 PM
I read the Soltron literature, and have used this product in the past. It's a biocide mainly, breaking down sludge and contaminants in fuel, mostly diesel into a burnable mixture. If Startron is StarBrite's re-labeling of this product, then I'm not sure how much this helps the ethanol separation problem over winter layup.

How does Sta-Bil fuel stabilizer work?

Just the facts, ma'am...

O

Dae
10-12-2006, 01:54 PM
Onnawata - 10/12/2006 1:45 PM

I read the Soltron literature, and have used this product in the past. It's a biocide mainly, breaking down sludge and contaminants in fuel, mostly diesel into a burnable mixture. If Startron is StarBrite's re-labeling of this product, then I'm not sure how much this helps the ethanol separation problem over winter layup.

How does Sta-Bil fuel stabilizer work?

Just the facts, ma'am...

O

Here's the info on Soltron, which is the same as Startron and xBee:

Gums and resins can form in fuel during storage due to oxidation of products within the fuel. Soltron® / Xbee® helps to stabilize fuel, restricts the separation and oxidation process and limits fuel degradation. In many cases, Soltron®/ Xbee® can also revitalize old fuel and reclaim water-fouled fuel.

I have no idea how fuel stablizers work and I have no idea why, the US marketer Star Brite, chose to use a different name then what is used else were.


- Dae

Onnawata
10-12-2006, 02:02 PM
Thanks, DAE, that sounds more on target.
Are we certain both products (Soltron, Startron) are identical?

Dae
10-12-2006, 08:20 PM
Onnawata - 10/12/2006 2:02 PM

Thanks, DAE, that sounds more on target.
Are we certain both products (Soltron, Startron) are identical?


There the same. Here's some info and the link if you want to read.

"We are currently utilizing distributors, oil marketers, independent sales
representatives and direct sales activities to provide a focused marketing
effort, which we believe will expose Soltron(R) directly to prospective
customers. We employ a national sales manager who develops and services
distributors and independent sales representatives throughout the United States,
Canada and Mexico. We also utilize other traditional distribution channels
including a Web site and resale distribution through retail chains such as NAPA.
In addition, through private labeling arrangements, we also sell Soltron(R)
through Ocean Bio-Chem, Inc. (dba Starbrite) under the brand name "Startron,"
and through Xtra Export Trade under the brand name "XBee," throughout all of the
European Union countries."

http://sec.edgar-online.com/2005/09/23/0001013762-05-001244/Section2.asp


- Dae

Kid Stuff
10-12-2006, 10:10 PM
http://www.ewboats.com/news.cfm?press_id=24

Onnawata
10-12-2006, 10:33 PM
According to the press release, there's nothing to worry about...

E-10 Unleaded does not damage engine parts or fuel system components.
E-10 Unleaded is compatible with all fuel system components that have been manufactured in the last 15 years. Older engines may be affected by the aromatics in unleaded gasoline, but this is not a result of ethanol. Ethanol also has no effect on valve longevity.

E-10 Unleaded will clean a dirty fuel tank helping improve performance.
If your fuel tank is dirty or has not been regularly maintained, using E-10 Unleaded may loosen rust and contaminants that have built up over the years—and your fuel filter may clog initially. But a simple change in filter—and continued use of E-10 Unleaded—will ensure a clean tank and reduced build-up of contaminants in the future, leading to improved performance.

E-10 Unleaded does not separate from two-stroke engine oil mixtures.
The ethanol in E-10 Unleaded does not affect the mixture of gasoline and two-stroke engine oil unless there is a high level of water in the gasoline (above 0.5 percent). By comparison, ordinary gasoline can only hold 0.02 percent water. So E-10 Unleaded is even more water-tolerant. E-10 Unleaded eliminates the need for gas line antifreeze. The ethanol in E-10 Unleaded suspends moisture, which allows moisture to burn through combustion instead of collecting in the gas line and freezing.

E-10 Unleaded requires no special care.
With E-10 Unleaded, you treat your fuel supply just as you treat ordinary unleaded gasoline. Simply use season-appropriate fuel and normal common sense procedures regarding gasoline storage and fuel system maintenance.

dingbat
10-13-2006, 09:46 AM
Stabilization of ethanol-gasoline mixtures

Document Type and Number: United States Patent 4328004

Link to this Page: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4328004.html

Abstract: A stabilized composition of matter comprising a fuel oil, such as gasoline, ethanol, small amounts of water and a stabilizing amount of an additive which is substantially insoluble in water, but which is soluble in ethyl alcohol and gasoline and is effective to prevent the separation of the gasoline-ethyl alcohol solution into two distinct phases; said additive being n-hexylalcohol, hereinafter, n-hexanol. The invention also includes a method for stabilizing gasoline, that is, for preventing or retarding the phase separation of gasoline-ethanol mixtures in the presence of small amounts of water, and this being the case when the temperature of the gasoline-ethanol mixture has been reduced to below 20.degree. F.


I find it interesting that Sta-bil is using isopropanol while Startron has gone with Napa for some reason. Perhaps a patent issue?

jwss
10-13-2006, 12:08 PM
Actually NAPA is an auto parts retailer not a component of
stratron, soltron or Xbee. .

Dae
10-13-2006, 02:51 PM
I'm thinking Mothballs....

You might be wondering what I'm talking about. From what I remember, some Mothballs are made with Naphthalene, which I understand is a form of Neptha. And I've also heard or read somewhere that Neptha is the most common type of fuel system cleaner and also stablizes gas. If what I remember is true, couldn't we use Mothballs as a fuel system cleaner in lieu if Quickleen and such? Also couldn't we also use it as a stablizer?

BTW, I also remember hearing from a few older guys that they use to use Mothballs in their cars to give them a boost. They use to tell me their cars had more power and better mileage when using them. Can anyone confirm?

- Dae

Onnawata
10-13-2006, 03:01 PM
ever smell moth balls?

Onnawata
10-13-2006, 03:13 PM
seriously, are you serious?
moth balls? do they still sell them?

rharris
10-13-2006, 03:22 PM
I thought the bottle of stabil says it is alcohol free. I need to go check on that. Isopropanol is isopropyl alcohol as I recall from chemistry courses from a long time ago. Aren't you supposed to stay away from alcohol based fuel conditioners in boats due to their tendency to break down into a certain percentage of water??

Dae
10-13-2006, 04:42 PM
Onnawata - 10/13/2006 3:13 PM

seriously, are you serious?
moth balls? do they still sell them?

Yes, I'm serious and Yes they do still sell them.

Maybe I should start a new thread about them.

- Dae

Dae
10-13-2006, 04:47 PM
rharris - 10/13/2006 3:22 PM

I thought the bottle of stabil says it is alcohol free. I need to go check on that. Isopropanol is isopropyl alcohol as I recall from chemistry courses from a long time ago. Aren't you supposed to stay away from alcohol based fuel conditioners in boats due to their tendency to break down into a certain percentage of water??

I wsa thinking the same thing but I wasn't sure if Isopropanol was the same as Isopropyl Alcohol.

If they are the same and Stabil is using Isopropanol, then people using E10 need to stay away from it. More alcohol is not good because alcohol will attract water and if you get .5% water contamination in your E10, you'll end up with Phase Separation. It's not good.


- Dae

Onnawata
10-13-2006, 04:50 PM
Damn the torpedoes,
I'm going with Startron.

O

rwidman
10-13-2006, 06:54 PM
larryg631 - 10/11/2006 7:20 PM

........ the guy at boaters world recomended Startron fuel treatment. I already use it to help with ethanol but didn't know it was also a stabalizer. It does say it will keep gas stabil for a year -

Yes, it is a fuel stabilizer. The bottles I've purchased had a pretty good set of documentation attached.

Dae
10-13-2006, 10:23 PM
Stabil Fuel stablizer.

I must really be bored tonight because I just keep looking, but guess what I found on Stabil. I found that there's no Alcohol in it. Here's what I found.
=========================
Ingredients from MSDS/Label

Chemical - MSDS: Proprietary or trade secret additive/ingredient(s) CAS No / Unique ID - 000000-00-8 Percent 5%
Chemical - Hydrotreated light naphthenic distillate solvent extract CAS No / Unique ID - 064742-53-6 Percent 95%
=========================

Makes it look it it's 95% Mothballs and 5% secret.


- Dae

prowlersfish
10-13-2006, 10:31 PM
Onnawata - 10/13/2006 12:45 AM

I read the Soltron literature, and have used this product in the past. It's a biocide mainly, breaking down sludge and contaminants in fuel, mostly diesel into a burnable mixture. If Startron is StarBrite's re-labeling of this product, then I'm not sure how much this helps the ethanol separation problem over winter layup.

How does Sta-Bil fuel stabilizer work?

Just the facts, ma'am...

O

Startron is not a biocide ( and thats a good thing ) I use it both diesel and gas :thumbsup:

CB Haws
10-13-2006, 11:09 PM
Yea most of these so called fuel stablizers are napha or xylene plus kerosene or isopropanol, 2-butoxyethanol (K-100) and maybe a pinch of some secret sauce. Which is probably butylated hydroxytoluene (BHT). Yea the same stuff they put in your bread to perserve freshness. As a chemist I have concluded that most of these stabilzers are just modern day SNAKE OIL. I especially like the touching testimonials on many of the websites from folks who would drink pi$$ if they ten others do so and said it was the best tasting beer they ever had. Save you money and drain your tank into you car before it goes bad.

Megabyte
10-13-2006, 11:21 PM
Dae - 10/13/2006 1:51 PM
From what I remember, some Mothballs are made with Naphthalene, which I understand is a form of Neptha.

Dae... I believe you are thinking of paradichlorobenzene.

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/rodent/pdb/prof-paradichlorobenzene.html

dingbat
10-13-2006, 11:52 PM
Dae - 10/13/2006 9:23 PM

Stabil Fuel stablizer.

I must really be bored tonight because I just keep looking, but guess what I found on Stabil. I found that there's no Alcohol in it. Here's what I found.
=========================
Ingredients from MSDS/Label

Chemical - MSDS: Proprietary or trade secret additive/ingredient(s) CAS No / Unique ID - 000000-00-8 Percent 5%
Chemical - Hydrotreated light naphthenic distillate solvent extract CAS No / Unique ID - 064742-53-6 Percent 95%
=========================

Makes it look it it's 95% Mothballs and 5% secret.


- Dae

It appears that formulation of Sta-bil was change in 1997 from 95% 2-propanol (MSDS 196363) to 95% PETROLEUM DISTILLATE (MSDS 186554)

Onnawata
10-14-2006, 12:03 AM
So, in layman's terms, what it all mean?
Is one better than the other?
Bottom line:

O

Dae
10-14-2006, 12:30 AM
Dingbat,

Where did you get your MSDS? I got it from the below link and also Cornell's MSDS search.
http://www.setonresourcecenter.com/msds/docs/wcd00020/wcd02095.htm

If then you compare the CAS #, you'll see in this link it's different then what you're showing but it matches my other link.:
http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=7006001

BTW, I also found this which has a different CAS# (64742-47-8) for the 95%. I'm guess it's still Naphtha based becasue it's listed as a PETROLEUM DISTILLATE.
http://www.wd-wpp.com/msds2/00000236.pdf

I'm now wondering if Stabil uses different formulas for different parts of the country.


- Dae

rwidman
10-14-2006, 09:41 AM
Onnawata - 10/13/2006 10:03 PM

So, in layman's terms, what it all mean?
Is one better than the other?
Bottom line:

O


Bottom line is that you have to decide for yourself which of these (or several other) products meets your needs. Sta-bil is marketed as a fuel stabilizer only while Startron is marketed as a "fuel treatment" as well as a stabilizer.

http://www.sta-bil.com/sta-bil/faqs_stabil.asp

http://www.starbrite.com/productdetail.cfm?ID=1537&ProductCat=Marine&ProductSCat=Gas%20and%20Diesel%20Additives&ProductSSCat=Startron%20Gas

My personal choice was to switch from off season use of Sta-bil to full time use of Startron.

Onnawata
10-14-2006, 09:50 AM
Not being a chemist, and barely able to read some of those chemical names - phenowhatnot, butopopeyeoliveoil, etc my thought is to pick one over the other since they basically do the same thing (but with different ingredients) to reduce the risk of negative interaction. I'm headed out to the marine store today for Startron. I'll start adding it now, and add more for winter layup next month. Here's hopin we all make the right choice - and let there be no surprises in the Spring!

O

stanleywinthrop
10-14-2006, 12:50 PM
I second the mothballs. Lotsa mothballs.

rwidman
10-14-2006, 01:26 PM
stanleywinthrop - 10/14/2006 10:50 AM

I second the mothballs. Lotsa mothballs.

You're joking, right? :o

Please, nobody put mothballs in their fuel tank. :roll

stanleywinthrop
10-14-2006, 06:06 PM
-----
You're joking, right?

Please, nobody put mothballs in their fuel tank.
-----
Ron
Glastron GS249

Now you are the one kidding!!!!

29 NORTH
10-14-2006, 06:22 PM
Not to derail a derail but it's Pri-G for me had it in my hurricane generator and the gas is 2+ years old and it started and ran easily. I also use it in my wife's corvette and my truck on ocassion. There is also one for diesels. Good info on starton in the thread, I had always wondered about it. By the way, Seafoam is also a good storage product .

prowlersfish
10-14-2006, 10:32 PM
stanleywinthrop - 10/15/2006 5:06 AM

-----
You're joking, right?

Please, nobody put mothballs in their fuel tank.
-----
Ron
Glastron GS249

Now you are the one kidding!!!!


I would not put Mothballs in my tank ! :nono:

samblate
10-15-2006, 06:20 AM
The problem with all these miracles in a bottle is that the manufacturers do not furnish any experimental or other scientific evidence demonstrating (1) what their product actually does, if anything, and (2) how it does it better than the competition.

Users typically state that they used a product last winter and had no problems this year -- but what would have happened if they had done nothing? They don't know because they have no evidence. Sure. we get peace of mind at $20 a bottle, but for what: actual, measurable results or snake solvent?

It seems to me that we ought to demand proof of effectiveness before plunking down good money for mass-produced chemicals. I wonder what the profit margins are for the manufacturers and the dealers.

Onnawata
10-15-2006, 09:10 AM
Soltron (Startron) is quite a bit cheaper and comes with supporting documentation.

dingbat
10-15-2006, 09:23 AM
Dae - 10/13/2006 11:30 PM

Dingbat,

Where did you get your MSDS? I got it from the below link and also Cornell's MSDS search.
http://www.setonresourcecenter.com/msds/docs/wcd00020/wcd02095.htm

If then you compare the CAS #, you'll see in this link it's different then what you're showing but it matches my other link.:
http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=7006001

BTW, I also found this which has a different CAS# (64742-47-8) for the 95%. I'm guess it's still Naphtha based becasue it's listed as a PETROLEUM DISTILLATE.
http://www.wd-wpp.com/msds2/00000236.pdf

I'm now wondering if Stabil uses different formulas for different parts of the country.


- Dae



http://msds.ogden.disa.mil/msds/owa/web_msds.display?imsdsnr=196363

http://msds.ogden.disa.mil/msds/owa/web_msds.display?imsdsnr=186554

Note the difference in the description one denotes 1132 STABIL FUEL STABILIZER and the other does not. Also notice the differences in the "last revised" date. I didn’t find any reference to 1132 Sta-bil on their website so I’m assuming that a new MSDS number was issued when the reformulation took place in 1997

As for the lsat link, the part number doesn't match the present Sta-bil productn and the MSDS is dated 1993 so it's more than likely 2 formulations old.

PossumBoy
10-15-2006, 09:59 AM
Onnawata - 10/13/2006 2:01 PM

ever smell moth balls?



no, its hard gettin there little leggs apart.

Onnawata
10-15-2006, 12:33 PM
heh, heh... u said it, I didn't!

samblate
10-15-2006, 01:02 PM
I googled Startron and its UK equivalent -- the most I could find was an unsubstantiated claim of "up to a 15% increase in gas mileage" -- how measured? -- by whom? -- what were other results which were not "15%?" The US Starbrite distributor had no answers...

...it seems to me that if they had proof of such a dramatic increase in mileage, they would have data. As for the enzyme action, most of their claims involve degradation of diesel fuel, not gasoline. It is well known that diesel can and does break down due to bacterial action, but gas with 10% ethanol? Again, where's the beef? Facts are facts, and I'm sure that if proof of effectiveness was available, the advertiser would show it.

Just because people say it works proves nothing.

Onnawata
10-15-2006, 01:08 PM
There is supporting documentation with every bottle of Startron.
A multipage pamphlet is attached.

O

rwidman
10-15-2006, 02:11 PM
samblate - 10/15/2006 11:02 AM
................................ Just because people say it works proves nothing.

It's a free market and each of us can choose a product (or no product) based on our research and the research or advice of others. I believe most "experts" and boat and engine manufacturers recommend the use of fuel stabilizers, at least for long term storage.



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